Terrell McClain

[KSpan]

12 minutes ago, CPantherKing said:

Of course you would eliminate Davis and Stewart while including Star in your argument. You have to in order to create and thread to keep Gettleman on par with Hurney.

You can look at Davis, Stewart, Williams, Otah, Beason and Gamble versus Star, KB, Shaq and Butler...

or

,,, you can look at KB, Shaq and Butler versus Williams, Beason, Gamble.

You can not toss in a top 19 pick to prop up your argument.

The argument I was making is that if it is so easy to pick in the 1st round, then why has Gettleman had trouble? You propose that it is not 1st round picks that are easy. It is just the top 19 picks that are easy. This would pull apart the argument for people critical of Hurney, because it means they have to credit him with success for Beason, Gamble, and Williams.

Let's go with your argument and leave out Star as padding since he is an easy pick who has yet to produce at a pro bowl or all pro level. In fact, Star is the only top 19 pick without an injury problem to end his career that has not been able to make a pro bowl. Star is on par with Jason Peter when he was healthy.

You label KB as an impact player. Impact players make a big enough impact at some point in their career to impress coaches, fans, and peers well enough to make it to a pro bowl at some point in their career. Impact does not mean downgraded position that is among the worst units in the NFL. Where was KB to push the Panthers to a winning season in 2014 or 2016? Where was KB in the playoffs against the Seahawks? Why does KB have trouble catching the ball and replacing Cotchery nevermind Steve Smith. We are still waiting KB to at least equal the impact an old Steve Smith had for the Panthers. KB is not an impact player yet for the Panthers no matter how you spin it. He was a downgrade and the WR position is still a downgrade across the board from the 2013 season.

Then you diminish the impact Williams had in his first for the Panthers over his first 3 seasons. Next you throw in Star without throwing in Davis and Stewart to skew your argument. Let's clean that up and still minimize the scope to attempt a favorable argument for Gettleman.

So, only the picks from 25 to 30 will count - that should be a tight enough window at a favorable attempt for Gettleman that is not considered an easy pick. KB, Shaq, and Butler versus Williams, Beason, and Gamble.

We agree Beason > Shaq and Gamble > Butler.

So, is KB > Williams? In KB first 3 seasons, he was an average starting WR and an average starting WR that is still a downgrade to his predecessor in his 3rd season. In Williams first 3 years, he was a back up to Deshaun Foster and a considerable upgrade over Deshaun Foster in his 3rd season. The clear result is that in their first 3 seasons Williams > KB. Maybe KB can pull even with Williams next year with a 1500+ yard 100+ reception season scoring 15+ TDs and going to the Pro Bowl. It is unlikely, but you can always hope.

So, Gettleman continues to trail Hurney in this little window created in an attempt to favor Gettleman. Gettleman's entire GM tenure to this point has all been based on hope for better production than the Hurney era. Still hoping and waiting for better production.

We also must consider that these picks gave Hurney 4 pro bowls and 1 all pro season. Gettleman's 3 picks have given the Panthers 0 pro bowls or all pro seasons, but we can always hope with time that this changes. I don't think anyone sees KB, Shaq, or Butler getting to that level any time soon, and some may say never in their careers.

You pulled out the Gettleman has not had enough time argument. Well how much time is enough time? Do we need 10 years of failing to produce impact players that can attain a pro bowl or all pro level? What is your cut off for this weak argument of Gettleman needs more time? Please, I would like to know so I know how long to expect this Gettleman nonsense to continue without any solid foundation under it.

Well, he has an EASY pick coming up in this next draft. I am sure there is no way Gettleman can screw an EASY pick up and have another 1st rounder who is not even in the pro bowl/all pro conversation. This pick is going to be an instant success like Peppers, Gross, Cam, and Kuechly - the only top 10 picks in Panthers history who have not failed to make an impact on the league. There is no way Gettleman would produce a top 10 pick like Kerry Collins or Tim Biakabatuka to make the Panthers future even worse. A top 10 pick is EASY according to everyone who criticizes Hurney to favor Gettleman.

Don't screw it up again Dave!

That wasn't the argument you were making at all - your own words from your own post, " Meanwhile, every Hurney 1st round pick addressed a need and was an instant upgrade/impact",  implying that Gettleman's 1st round picks are worse across the board. Your assertion was that Hurney's first-rounders immediately came in and immediately made an instant/immediate difference, and that's patently false. TD did come in and make a difference in special cases (Vick) much like Shaq came in and made a difference in special cases (Fitzgerald/the Cardinals). Again sticking with your focus of "immediate impact", Deangelo had 1200 rushing yards his first 2 years as the Panthers went 8-8 and 7-9 and finished 24th and 14th in rushing, significant dropoffs from their 2005 record of 11-5 and not much change from their ranking of 16th. When we correct for draft position, which absolutely makes a difference, Hurney's picks in the same area and Gettleman's aren't much different.

I did forget Stewart and while it wasn't intentional, it was hardly a need pick (something you've complained mightily about Gettleman doing) and sure didn't help much 2009-2012; not much 'immediate impact' there. Stewart was a quality pick and I think is heartily underrated by many but has earned exactly 1 Pro Bowl nod, a metric that you quoted in favor of Hurney's drafting ability. 

It's also very difficult to try to compare guys like Butler and Shaq to guys like Beason and Gamble because they haven't needed to be thrown into the fire. What kind of player woudl Shaw be if he was on the field all the time? As good as Beason? Maybe not, but he's shown enough to think that he might be pretty damn good. Can't say anything definitive about Vernon but he appears to be further behind than other 1st rounders.

This is essentially KB's second season, so your point about Deangelo is worthless. Deangelo was also known to be lazy and complacent during his first years, turning it around in his third. Let's see what KB has next year to compare to Deangelo's 2008. And KB had 7 catches for 75 yards and 2 TDs against the Seahawks with no other receiver help, so your point there is crap as well.

Regarding time, I did not say that Gettleman has not had enough time. I said that you're bolstering Hurney's argument about "players still in the league" with players who have all been around for many total years longer than Gettleman has even been responsible for drafting. That's a biased point to try to make and would only be valid a few years form now when we could see who was still around at the 5-10 years marks in their careers. It's simply not possible to attempt to compare the two in this area. 

I'm not a blanket Gettleman supporter - the man has his flaws and this offseason will be huge in determining what he does and will continue to do for this team. I am against flawed analyses making claims that aren't supported by the available data.

 

[Cyberjag]

While y'all are arguing about Hurney/Gettleman, I'm over here wondering why Eric Washington and Sam Mills III weren't able to get him to perform up to Rivera/Hurney's expectations enough to keep him from getting cut.  They basically let him go to sign Dwan Edwards, just a year after they drafted him.  I don't think the GM went to Rivera and said, "Hey, I don't like this guy", it's far more likely that he asked Rivera if he felt McClain was going to work out and acted to get an upgrade based on that advice.

Based on what McClain is doing in Dallas, maybe that 3rd round pick wasn't a mistake by the GM at all, just someone who didn't get the coaching he needed to be successful until he bounced around to the Texans and later the Cowboys.  

[KSpan]

6 minutes ago, Cyberjag said:

While y'all are arguing about Hurney/Gettleman, I'm over here wondering why Eric Washington and Sam Mills III weren't able to get him to perform up to Rivera/Hurney's expectations enough to keep him from getting cut.  They basically let him go to sign Dwan Edwards, just a year after they drafted him.  I don't think the GM went to Rivera and said, "Hey, I don't like this guy", it's far more likely that he asked Rivera if he felt McClain was going to work out and acted to get an upgrade based on that advice.

Based on what McClain is doing in Dallas, maybe that 3rd round pick wasn't a mistake by the GM at all, just someone who didn't get the coaching he needed to be successful until he bounced around to the Texans and later the Cowboys.  

That's absolutely fair as well, and is an under-discussed aspect of conversations like this. Maybe McClain (or insert other player here) was uncoachable here (or insert Team X here) and needed to get cut to wake up. I think that's one reason why you see so many recycled players going from place to place - can you offer a fit that gets someone to perform up to talent? McClain is also playing in a 3-4 system, so maybe there are some aspects of it that just match his talents better.

[WarHeel]

I don't know about the other comparison but Sherrod Martin was better than Tre Boston.  Boston sucks....and yes, Martin was horrible 

Tre is serviceable. Not great. Not horrible either. Yet he receives the majority of scapegoating around here. And no way Melvin > Prefracture Bene


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[CPantherKing]

2 hours ago, KSpan said:

Your assertion was that Hurney's first-rounders immediately came in and immediately made an instant/immediate difference

They were instant upgrades or impacts as I stated. None of them were downgrades.

Peppers replaced Jay Williams; upgrade and impact.

Gross replaced Steussie; upgrade and impact.

Gamble replaced Reggie Howard; upgrade and impact.

TD replaced Brian Allen; upgrade

Williams replaced Deshaun Foster as a back up; even replacement.

Beason replaced Chris Draft; instant upgrade and impact.

Stewart replaced Williams as back up; upgrade and impact as back up RB.

Otah replaced Jeremy Bridges; upgrade and impact.

Cam Newton replaced Matt Moore; upgrade and impact.

Luke Kuechly replaced an injury prone Jon Beason; upgrade and impact.

----- Then comes Gettleman.

Star replaces Ron Edwards; upgrade and impact.

KB replaces Steve Smith; downgrade and inconsistent.

Shaq replaces Chase Blackburn; downgrade and project.

Butler replaces Dwan Edwards; downgrade and deactivated.

 

Notice a trend in a decline on return the Panthers receive from their 1st round picks compared to their predecessor? This is not called improvement. This is called regression.

[CPantherKing]

16 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Blah, blah, blah. You absolutely left out Hurney to make it seem like it was Gettleman's fault. Your bias is so easy to spot. You write books in every post, but you mean to say you just left that tidbit out?

Funny thing is he's not my favorite, nor do I dislike Hurney. I just like calling you out when you spew BS like this where you intentionally leave out information to deceive and act like Gettleman was to blame until I called you on it. Sort of like how you continue to bash Bradberry just because he's a Gettleman pick when he's played at a level that CBs taken the first round have played at including guys in the top 15.

Bradberry is no Peterson or Eli Apple.

CBs like Bradberry and Worley should never start as a rookie. The front office is responsible for making sure they have vets to learn from and vets to depend on so the rest of the players and coaches do not have to take a hit. Irresponsible by the front office to put the team in that spot. A CB without vet leadership tends to take much longer to develop, if at all in the NFL. Expect to see Bradberry and Worley struggle throughout their rookie contracts because of the situation Gettleman has placed them in for the start of their career.

Bradberry is responsible for leading the worst unit on the Panthers defense and a pass defense that has crashed in the ranksing even with a pass rush and run defense in the middle. I have to make sure I underline the defense in the middle, because the Panthers are now dead last at defending the outside runs with their CBs compared to being the best in the league at defending the outside run with Norman and Tillman.