Ex-GM Hurney: I'd sit Luke Kuechly

[CRA]

1 hour ago, Mvp2014 said:

And 20 or so other GMs knew better apparently.  Red flags all over the place.  

So 20 GMs passed on him once? Yeah, that is damning.  He was a Pro Bowl caliber RT as a rookie and was a reason we were successful that season.  When Otah was on the field he was literally what you wanted at this level at RT. 

Injuires happen.  Can't predict them.  Blasting guys for valuing their own bodies and future is silly.  He was massive and the ole he just isn't tough garbage is annoying.  8-15 years ago Luke would have been blasted as not tough too...don't try to spin it as if people wouldn't have.  

[MV%doe]

Here is hurney vs gettleman, if both have ten years to build a team.

Now rosters consist of 53 players and 10 man practice squad.

Judging form #1-10(your best ranking players), imo both hurney and gettleman would be about the same. Its grrrrrrrreat difference drafting in top ten, than the back ten. Funny how hurney seemed to drafting near the beginning(why is that???), than the end and gettlemans' highest pick came form the hurney regime(could change this year). That said, I'd still feel the results would be very close.

 Now the rest of the team, no matter how you want to break down the numbers. 11-22, 11-35, 30-53 etc etc. Gettleman wins form 11-53, no question. Even the same will be said for 10 player practice squad. Gettlemans' 63 player squads would have better depth and overall more nfl caliber players. In ten years hurney found about two UDFAs- hoooooover and Fred lane. In four years gettleman has found around 4-8 depending on your rating. One name Matt willing.....

  

 

 

[Mvp2014]

1 hour ago, CRA said:

So 20 GMs passed on him once? Yeah, that is damning.  He was a Pro Bowl caliber RT as a rookie and was a reason we were successful that season.  When Otah was on the field he was literally what you wanted at this level at RT. 

Injuires happen.  Can't predict them.  Blasting guys for valuing their own bodies and future is silly.  He was massive and the ole he just isn't tough garbage is annoying.  8-15 years ago Luke would have been blasted as not tough too...don't try to spin it as if people wouldn't have.  

Yes you can predict them.   There are guys every year that fall into later rounds because of injury history.  Otah had injury flags up to his senior year where he had ankle surgery before the draft.  Thats a big deal when the man is 340.  

 

Luke could have played in any era and never would have been called soft.    Not only was he never injured,  he broke NCAA records and was a Nagurski finalist 4 years in a row.  Wtf are you smoking tho?  Does it taste like baking soda?

 

 

[CRA]

3 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Are you counting the first round picks that were traded away for guys like Everette Brown?

(or the near first rounder traded for Armanti Edwards)

It's easier to hit on first round picks when you're picking high because the team you put together the previous year was terrible.

Yes.  Name 5 random teams.  There are teams much much worse at drafting.  Nitpick him all you want.  It's not that I don't think those criticisms are legit.  But when you start saying he was bad compared to others at drafting...I just disagree. 

I'll have to find the article but research has been done and the old claim that first round picks are just easier is simply overstated.  Teams bust on them all the time and frequently.  Yet Hurney gets his tossed out the window as if everyone can do it (when they can't).

Hurney overall was a better drafter than most.  It was the rest of the job that he screwed up.  

 

[CRA]

32 minutes ago, Mvp2014 said:

Yes you can predict them.   There are guys every year that fall into later rounds because of injury history.  Otah had injury flags up to his senior year where he had ankle surgery before the draft.  Thats a big deal when the man is 340.  

 

Luke could have played in any era and never would have been called soft.    Not only was he never injured,  he broke NCAA records and was a Nagurski finalist 4 years in a row.  Wtf are you smoking tho?  Does it taste like baking soda?

 

 

Disagree.  15 years ago if a guy routinely missed weeks for a concussion people (message board types) would be all over him.  There was no protocol like today.  Guys suited up the next week and there own health was disregarded by them and the team.  

Luke has been practicing.  15 years ago he would have been expected to play.  

Concussions simply are handled different today by all parties.  That can't be argued really.  Can't claim people would be cool with Luke sitting 15 years ago because literally no one cared vs today's environment. 

 

[Mr. Scot]

4 minutes ago, CRA said:

Yes.  Name 5 random teams.  There are teams much much worse at drafting.  Nitpick him all you want.  It's not that I don't think those criticisms are legit.  But when you start saying he was bad compared to others at drafting...I just disagree. 

I'll have to find the article but research has been done and the old claim that first round picks are just easier is simply overstated.  Teams bust on them all the time and frequently.  Yet Hurney gets his tossed out the window as if everyone can do it (when they can't).

Hurney overall was a better drafter than most.  It was the rest of the job that he screwed up.  

 

Hurney's last four drafts netted 32 players.

If I'm generous with the definition of "decent player", I can pick out 7 guys that were at least okay and only 3 to 4 I'd call really good players.

That's not "A+". That's barely even a D.

The 2009 draft in particular was absolute garbage.

[CRA]

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

Hurney's last four drafts netted 32 players.

If I'm generous with the definition of "decent player", I can pick out 7 guys that were at least okay and only 3 to 4 I'd call really good players.

That's not "A+". That's barely even a D.

The 2009 draft in particular was absolute garbage.

I don't think it is fair to cherry pick windows of his career and disregard the rest. I don't judge Jake post Tommy John but as the Panther QB from start to finish. The result would two vastly different takes. 

2009 was horrible.  I don't dispute that.  So was Jake in 2009.  Doesnt meant pre-Tommy John Jake is irreverent in his career assessment. 

Let's discuss it differently, are there 3 franchsies you would say were clearly better over the Hurney era come draft time?

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

I don't think it is fair to cherry pick windows of his career and disregard the rest. I don't judge Jake post Tommy John but as the Panther QB from start to finish. The result would two vastly different takes. 

2009 was horrible.  I don't dispute that.  So was Jake in 2009.  Doesnt meant pre-Tommy John Jake is irreverent in his career assessment. 

Let's discuss it differently, are there 3 franchsies you would say were clearly better over the Hurney era come draft time?

Used the last four because those are the ones most likely to have players still young enough to be playing in the league.

I was a Hurney supporter for a while until I actually did an analysis of his drafts and got a look at just how bad it was going. I think that was around 2007. That's when my opinion changed.

I can take a look at other teams but not at the moment. That'll have to wait till later.

[outlaw4]

20 minutes ago, CRA said:

I don't think it is fair to cherry pick windows of his career and disregard the rest. I don't judge Jake post Tommy John but as the Panther QB from start to finish. The result would two vastly different takes. 

2009 was horrible.  I don't dispute that.  So was Jake in 2009.  Doesnt meant pre-Tommy John Jake is irreverent in his career assessment. 

Let's discuss it differently, are there 3 franchsies you would say were clearly better over the Hurney era come draft time?

Hurney the drafter I didn't have as much trouble with. With a first round pick, all but a guarantee that player was going to contribute. However, his second round choices other than Kalil were downright awful. What we gave up to get Everett Brown and Armanti Edwards still irks me to this day. Also, all those receivers we drafted in hopes to complement Smitty after Moose left and the best solution was to bring him back? Yikes. He never could find a replacement for Kris Jenkins either. I can't even recall who they are.

[CRA]

51 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Used the last four because those are the ones most likely to have players still young enough to be playing in the league.

I was a Hurney supporter for a while until I actually did an analysis of his drafts and got a look at just how bad it was going. I think that was around 2007. That's when my opinion changed.

I can take a look at other teams but not at the moment. That'll have to wait till later.

My be a good offseason discussion too. 

don't get me wrong I soured on Hurney overall as well.  Just not his overall drafting.  There was some clear JR involvement IMO though when it came to the late Hurney years in his mess.  That's just me.   Always thought he was the poster boy ultimately for JR's wishes prior and after his league wide messages he wanted sent by his team was ran. 

[CRA]

6 minutes ago, outlaw4 said:

Hurney the drafter I didn't have as much trouble with. With a first round pick, all but a guarantee that player was going to contribute. However, his second round choices other than Kalil were downright awful. What we gave up to get Everett Brown and Armanti Edwards still irks me to this day. Also, all those receivers we drafted in hopes to complement Smitty after Moose left and the best solution was to bring him back? Yikes. He never could find a replacement for Kris Jenkins either. I can't even recall who they are.

As a mentioned earlier, the biggest blunders of his career IMO also tend to be around the time JR wanted to send a message.  I have always partially given him a pass on some of it because I always believed some of his contracts and roster management got screwed thanks to Jerry. 

2010 IMO was his worst draft because he had no coach to cater to and was essentially doing his own thing.  Hurney's biggest strength IMO early on was he catered to his coach.  Obviously he wasn't a talent guy.  Gettlemen IMO doesn't put the same emphasis on caring about what the coaches want. Could be good or bad. Short term I think it is hurting Ron. 

[outlaw4]

31 minutes ago, CRA said:

As a mentioned earlier, the biggest blunders of his career IMO also tend to be around the time JR wanted to send a message.  I have always partially given him a pass on some of it because I always believed some of his contracts and roster management got screwed thanks to Jerry. 

2010 IMO was his worst draft because he had no coach to cater to and was essentially doing his own thing.  Hurney's biggest strength IMO early on was he catered to his coach.  Obviously he wasn't a talent guy.  Gettlemen IMO doesn't put the same emphasis on caring about what the coaches want. Could be good or bad. Short term I think it is hurting Ron. 

I can't recall specifics but I do get the impression Jerry is more hands off today than in the Hurney days. I do prefer the hands off approach more. 

I definitely see that Gettleman is more of a long term guy. With just about any head coach, it will cause them grief because they face the consequences of short term performance more. 

[Ivan The Awesome]

7 hours ago, FootballLivesMatter said:

You kidding me? You lost me at "no way we weren't going to pick QB". Hurney drafted Jimmy Goldenboy Clausen in the 2nd rd the year before. Plenty of reasons why many thought we might not be drafting a QB. Some thought Von Miller, Dareus, Green or PP7 could be the pick too. 

Hurney had enough balls to say he liked Cam more than Clausen. 

Hurney did not draft a raw Cam bc he like the "wildcat". Lol

You have to be kidding me. Did you not watch that season? I went to several games that season. New regime picks their guys...Do you even football? Rivera wasn't going to keep Clausen. This guy. 

Read option, wild cat, same gimmick poo. Hurney loved that. So stop with your nonsense. 

[FootballLivesMatter]

5 minutes ago, Ivan The Awesome said:

You have to be kidding me. Did you not watch that season? I went to several games that season. New regime picks their guys...Do you even football? Rivera wasn't going to keep Clausen. This guy. 

Read option, wild cat, same gimmick poo. Hurney loved that. So stop with your nonsense. 

Oh my dang gah. Just quit man. You're making a fool out of your self. Nonsense is your middle name.