Gil Brandt says Let KK Walk...

[Kakarot]

46 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

I hope Gettleman gets a deal done with Star and KK. It is important that we retain core players not only for their talent but their leadership. Plus it tells the other guys on the team that if you work hard you will get yours when your rookie deal is done. Players need to know that we as an organization care about them more than just a number or position. Sure this is a business but if you say you want people who want to be here you have to show them you want them here as well. Gettleman comes across like he is doing just the opposite.

This!! I think it would be a bad idea to just let KK walk.

[top dawg]

48 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

I hope Gettleman gets a deal done with Star and KK. It is important that we retain core players not only for their talent but their leadership. Plus it tells the other guys on the team that if you work hard you will get yours when your rookie deal is done. Players need to know that we as an organization care about them more than just a number or position. Sure this is a business but if you say you want people who want to be here you have to show them you want them here as well. Gettleman comes across like he is doing just the opposite.

I agree, but...overpaying is not good for the budget. He wants to get paid like Cox (and that hasn't out too well for the Iggles this year), and I just don't know that the value is there. I'm not saying that he doesn't deserve a higher payday---based mostly upon his work last season, and gradual improvement up until this season---but is he worth even $14 million per year? That's quite a bit of the budget for B level production which is what I'd give him for his complete body of work.

[thefuzz]

52 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

So who has he extended on defense besides Luke, Davis  and Coleman? There are 22 starters on a team and 11 on defense. you have to do better than extend 4 or 5 guys and think things are great. He signed a few no brainers and never brings in a quality free agent he pays good money for. You come to Carolina to shine in order to go elsewhere or on a 1 or 2 year prove it contract if you struggled or were injured in order to get paid by someone else. You wonder why most folks aren't loyal to you? Davis is fiercely loyal because Richardson was loyal to him when he didn't have to after repeated injuries. You think Gettleman would have shown him the same respect or simply shown him the door? Gettleman is breeding a culture of disloyalty, mistrust, and negative feelings with many.players. Now that we aren't on top watch that bite us in the butt this year. 

 It is important that we retain core players not only for their talent but their leadership. Plus it tells the other guys on the team that if you work hard you will get yours when your rookie deal is done.

 

That is what you said.  

Now exactly who has DG let walk that was a "core" guy that exhibited strong good leadership?

 

He has signed our entire "core" to contract extensions, while picking up Star's 5th year option as well.  Our unquestioned leaders on this team are and were Cam, Luke, TD, Kalil, and Olsen.  DG has extended them all.

Next up, Turner, Norwell, Star, possibly KK, etc....

Outside of Norman and Smith, both good players but not great leaders, who has DG let "walk" that was considered part of the "core" of the Panthers?

[RumHam]

18 hours ago, gorillamilitia13 said:

You can't even come close to making the conclusion that Bradberry will be better than Norman

Yeah well half of this board does. They think Bradberry will have more impact than Cam. If resigning KK will break us, hell no. We have too many issues elsewhere. We atleast need a veteran corner in there to help these guys. And an end that can get pressure and JPP isn't the answer.

[beastson]

I personally think KK will be looking elsewhere if Gettleman don't hit FA early and let it be known he's serious about building this team up

[The NFL Shield At Midfield]

he'd be getting paid $15 million/year with $60 million+ guaranteed if the armchair GMs on this site had had their way back in march

probably should have jumped on that $12/13 million per gettleman was reportedly tabling

[Bronn]

Not gonna read the whole thread, but I think KK gets re-signed.

5 years/ $72 Million, structured at 10, 12, 16, 18, and 16 Mil per yr cap hit over the span. 14.4 M average for the contract.

It'd make him the third highest paid DT behind Suh and Cox and just slightly ahead of Malik Jackson.

It'll be close to 1/5th of our cap space next season. We'll also have to re-sign Lotulelei the following offseason if not before, and he'll get around 7-8 Million a year based on current estimates.

Of course, Butler could throw a cog into all of this depending on how he develops. But tbqh, I can imagine us being much worse without KK and Star this year, and I feel like we need to lock them  both up into the 2020's.

We also need to get a deal done with Trai Turner before his contract is up, and I think he'll eat 6-7 Million of our cap space this offseason (if we choose to work out an extension before he becomes a UFA in the 2018 offseason.)

We could lock up Short and Turner into the 2020's and still have 30+ Mil in cap space this offseason. There are lesser contracts we need to take care of, too, but we are in good enough shape to keep our core guys together for a while.

[Bronn]

4 hours ago, top dawg said:

He's come up short short in a contract year. There is a stark difference between this year and last. I'm not even sure he's worth the 14 mil per year that has been suggested as offered. That's plenty, and if he doesn't want to take it, then let him hit the bricks for more money. His play simply hasn't justified any more. Hell, I could argue that Love has been a better value this year.

He's easily top 5 DT in the league. Look at the guys around him. We paid Charles Johnson like $3 mil for one year and he's been meh for a while now. Lack of talent on the outside has squelched the ability to do anything inside.

14 would make him top 4, and I think he's worth that, especially if we can get him some help on the outside.

From what I've seen/read, I don't think KK wouldn't take a fair deal from the Panthers. If we offer him security (years) and a fair price (14) with maybe a third of the contract guaranteed, I see no reason he'll walk.

[thefuzz]

1 hour ago, stbugs said:

There aren't a drove of people he let walk. DWill was let go due to contract size and performance (he was terrible for us at the end, much worse that Stewart). Smith was let. Charles Johnson was let go and re-signed and then Norman, who was offered the tender and didn't sign it. I still don't count Gross, because he retired and I think the same people that hate Gettleman are 100% behind the he forced him out theory.

Extended: Cam, Luke, TD, Olsen, Kalil, Oher and Coleman

Still on Rookie Deals ending soon, hence have not actually be given walking papers: Short, Star, Ealy, Turner, Norwell, Boston, Klein, Remmers. I don't count Benjamin because he can get a cheap 5th year so he's pretty much locked in through 2018.

Other, again still haven't been given walking papers: Addison, Ginn, Dickson, Tolbert (please do), Stewart, Love, Solai, Charles Johnson (again)

Rookie deals/Others are all those guys we've been saving money for as the others were extended already. The whole DG continues to let people go after their rookie deal that we developed and was good is a myth. The only person that fits in that bucket is Norman and he was in fact given a franchise tender worth $14M, which he declined. That isn't a cheap offer for 1 year. I'm upset he didn't sign it, but happy for him that he's milking Snyder for all that $$$.

Agreed 100%.

 

I'm not backing DG for this off season, but it's not nearly as bad as many on this board are making it out to be.  And he has, in fact, taken really good care of the players that he deems the "core" of this Panthers football team.

 

[panthers55]

3 hours ago, top dawg said:

I agree, but...overpaying is not good for the budget. He wants to get paid like Cox (and that hasn't out too well for the Iggles this year), and I just don't know that the value is there. I'm not saying that he doesn't deserve a higher payday---based mostly upon his work last season, and gradual improvement up until this season---but is he worth even $14 million per year? That's quite a bit of the budget for B level production which is what I'd give him for his complete body of work.

I am not sure he can justify Cox money either if we compare their production this year. I think the big issue with Cox and KK was more about the guaranteed money than just overall salary which can be easily.manipulated. Guaranteed money does matter a good deal and needs to be negotiated with factors such as production, age, among others being taken into account.. He is still going to get paid and might look for greener pastures given our precipitous regression. I would hope we don't.let both of them walk.

[panthers55]

3 hours ago, thefuzz said:

 It is important that we retain core players not only for their talent but their leadership. Plus it tells the other guys on the team that if you work hard you will get yours when your rookie deal is done.

 

That is what you said.  

Now exactly who has DG let walk that was a "core" guy that exhibited strong good leadership?

 

He has signed our entire "core" to contract extensions, while picking up Star's 5th year option as well.  Our unquestioned leaders on this team are and were Cam, Luke, TD, Kalil, and Olsen.  DG has extended them all.

Next up, Turner, Norwell, Star, possibly KK, etc....

Outside of Norman and Smith, both good players but not great leaders, who has DG let "walk" that was considered part of the "core" of the Panthers?

Norman was one of the core guys. He never had an issue with other players and was an emotional leader. He and Tillman were core members of the secondary. Were they long term solutions? No. But when you get rid of guys like Harper, Tillman and Norman you have to replace them with  veterans as well who bring leadership and experience.  Now we look at not signing KK who again is your core group of guys. Just as much as Star. Yeah I know we haven't let him walk yet but that is what the thread is about. And again my feeling is that KK looks worse because the secondary is so porous. He got lots of coverage sacks last year which he isn't getting this year. He didn't get less talented for sure.

As for Smith, I love him but totally understand why we parted ways. He admitted he didn't want to stick around while Cam learned to play so he was better off elsewhere. I just hated the crappy way Getyleman did it.

[thefuzz]

1 minute ago, panthers55 said:

Norman was one of the core guys. He never had an issue with other players and was an emotional leader. He and Tillman were core members of the secondary. Were they long term solutions? No. But when you get rid of guys like Harper, Tillman and Norman you have to replace them with  veterans as well who bring leadership and experience.  Now we look at not signing KK who again is your core group of guys. Just as much as Star. Yeah I know we haven't let him walk yet but that is what the thread is about. And again my feeling is that KK looks worse because the secondary is so porous. He got lots of coverage sacks last year which he isn't getting this year. He didn't get less talented for sure.

As for Smith, I love him but totally understand why we parted ways. He admitted he didn't want to stick around while Cam learned to play do he was better off elsewhere. I just hated the crappy way Getyleman did it.

We will have to disagree about Norman being a "core" guy, hell he stayed in Ron's doghouse for years until he started to play within the system.  Great player? No doubt.  Leader?  Eh....not to me.  But to each his own.

As to Peanut, I think he would still be here were it not for the late season ACL.

Harper.....my guess.....DG had a long talk with Ron, and Ron probably told him Tre was ready to step up, and we had a playmaker beside him in Coleman.  Who has underperformed like the rest of the Panthers this season.

DG may let KK walk...I don't think that he will, but KK may push him into a corner, and I would prefer not to overpay for his services...I would prefer to let him go, resign Turner, Norwell, and get a FA tackle..but to each their own.

I think this team has plenty of veteran leadership, what we didn't have plenty of this season was execution, good play calls,  luck, and health.

In fact, I'm not sure there is a team in the league with better talent at the top leadership positions than the Carolina Panthers.  Cam, Kalil, Olsen, TD, and Luke.  Those are all top players at their positions, really good leaders, and really good men.

[LinvilleGorge]

Everyone is talking about Fletcher Cox... sure, let's do.

1st year (only 9 starts) - 32 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 2 hurries

2nd year - 32 tackles, 3 sacks, 13 hurries

3rd year - 48 tackles, 4 sacks, 13 hurries

4th year - 50 tackles, 9.5 sacks, 33 hurries (4th in the league)

HUGE contract

This year - 19 tackles, 4 sacks, 16 hurries

Now, I'm normally not one to focus too heavily on stats, especially for a DT.  But, penetrating three technique DTs are supposed to rack up stats. Especially the elite ones. Is Cox worth what the Eagles paid? Time will tell, but the early returns aren't that great. Last season looks like a bit of an anomaly for Cox in terms of QB pressure and that's what the Eagles paid him for. Tackle numbers had been solid for the past 3 seasons and very good in the past two.  They're way down.

Short's stats for comparison:

1st year (0 starts) - 19 tackles, 1.5 sacks, 3 hurries

2nd year (9 starts) - 22 tackles, 3.5 sacks, 5 hurries

3rd year - 36 tackles, 11 sacks, 23 hurries

This year - 18 tackles, 3 sacks, 8 hurries

Everything about Short's season last year looks like an anomaly. Last season blinded me too and I was ready to call him the best three technique in football, but the reality is that he isn't even close. If it takes big bucks, LET SHORT WALK.

I've been very critical of Gettleman for this season and I think he definitely deserves a pretty good deal of criticism, but in terms of going with a three technique DT in the 1st? I think there may be some method to his madness.  Looking at that stat breakdown and based on contract negotiations with Short this past offseason, I think there's a pretty good chance Gettleman already knew he was letting Short walk after this season.

[panthers55]

19 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

We will have to disagree about Norman being a "core" guy, hell he stayed in Ron's doghouse for years until he started to play within the system.  Great player? No doubt.  Leader?  Eh....not to me.  But to each his own.

As to Peanut, I think he would still be here were it not for the late season ACL.

Harper.....my guess.....DG had a long talk with Ron, and Ron probably told him Tre was ready to step up, and we had a playmaker beside him in Coleman.  Who has underperformed like the rest of the Panthers this season.

DG may let KK walk...I don't think that he will, but KK may push him into a corner, and I would prefer not to overpay for his services...I would prefer to let him go, resign Turner, Norwell, and get a FA tackle..but to each their own.

I think this team has plenty of veteran leadership, what we didn't have plenty of this season was execution, good play calls,  luck, and health.

In fact, I'm not sure there is a team in the league with better talent at the top leadership positions than the Carolina Panthers.  Cam, Kalil, Olsen, TD, and Luke.  Those are all top players at their positions, really good leaders, and really good men.

You are wrong about this team having veterans leadership in all the core spots. It isn't just leadership in general because players spend most of their time with their own cadre of position players. Where is the leadership in the secondary?  The rookies, Coleman, Boston? Please... the closest thing we have is Johnson and the improvement over the past few weeks might be picking him up.

Without Kalil, Oher and even Turner, where is the leadership on the OLine? 

Who is providing leadership with the receivers? Ginn? What about when he is gone next year? Olsen to an extent but I don't know if TE and WR send all their time together. 

Leadership is on the field when guys are thinking here we go again and they look into the leaders eyes and they see confidence and the we got this covered look back. That is missing from core groups which are hurting us big time. In addition to your core long termers you need veterans with experience to fill gaps and needs. Something he did in the past but screwed up this past offseason. Gettleman hasn't screwed up big time yet but he seems headed in a concerning direction and you heard it here first. I look at the long term not just the immediate. Who predicted the problems we were going to have? Yeah, this guy. Now I am telling you if Gettleman doesnt stop the tough guy act he will drive agents and players away to the point we will have to rely on the draft because few people will want to play here. That was what started Hurney's demise in 2010 when Richardson went on the cheap. Argue all you want but we will see this offseason. I hope I am wrong as would any Panther fan who wants us to win. Gettleman did great getting us out of cap hell, now he needs to manage for long term stability. Something he surely hasn't done with some of his choices.