Second half scoring... what happened?

[GoobyPls]

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

We not only ran more max protection than everyone in the NFL but teams allowed it. Until Wade Phillips laughed at all our opponents for how they dealt with max protect.  Now teams are like..thanks Wade for telling us a basic approach to deal with it. 

The Broncos pass rush was so good they could deal with max protection with just 4 rushing.

 

Teams are also not scared of going man to man against our WR, which is more bad news for our pass protection.

[TheRed]

7 minutes ago, stbugs said:

I'll agree with that. I guess, I just see the OL as we know what we have, although to be fair, we've had injuries to Kalil and Oher that really haven't helped at all. Oher would be much better than Remmers although it has at least helped for next year by getting Williams the much needed experience as he looked lost in pre-season.

I look at NE and Seattle and all of the OL issues they've had the past few years and how they scheme and game plan to help their QBs. Watch all the plays we highlight about how bad Remmers is and you will see Cam dropping way too deep. If you really want to see it, go watch the Denver game again. Watch how Collinsworth did a breakdown about how well Remmers was doing with Miller in the first half. He mentioned short drops, different formations and a couple times, just good blocking. Watch the second half, mainly the last few drives where we seemed to fall back into the Remmers can handle Miller mode and Cam is dropping way back right to where Miller will be on a speed rush around Remmers. We got over confident and went back to what didn't work in the Super Bowl. If we had started off the Super Bowl with the same game plan as week 1, we win the Super Bowl easy. If we stuck with the first half game plan, I think we win week 1 easy.

Do you really think that Seattle would be 3-6 or NE be 3-6 if we handed them our OL to start the year? I know they wouldn't.

Kalil, and Oher being out definitely hurt.

I don't really bother with comparisons between teams because they have coaches more than willing to change things up, and make adjustments if it clearly isn't working. Rivera is just too damn stubborn sometimes, and his excessive loyalty to certain underperforming players that is not consistent with other players has been an issue since he took over.

[nctarheel0619]

50 minutes ago, TheRed said:

Oh I completely agree there have been obvious coaching, and player gaffes.

Not sure if that last bit about Gettleman is directed at me. But we definitely could have at the very least done a better job of improving our OL depth this offseason so we aren't stuck starting guys like Remmers at Cam's blindside. Nobody has said anything about magically signing 5 pro bowlers. If you want to give Gettleman a pass, that's up to you, but our offseason was a failure, that isn't debateable.

Red, you know better dude.  Every Gettlemen nut sucker is trying to throw "shade" at all us exposing him for this awful offseason he had this past year.  

[Darvinsun]

2 hours ago, CRA said:

all teams go into our matchup knowing we are undermanned on the OL.  We were last year and teams allowed us to get by scheming with our max protection (then Wade Phillips called out the NFL and told them what to do).

So this year teams basically take the first half to see how we are giving help to our OL each week based on matchups (because how you give it depends on opponent).....and then adjust in the 2nd half.

Everyone then says well all Shula has to do is adjust again but when you are out manned body on body there is only so much window dressing and help you can do.  We start off every game adjusting to aid our OL before a single play has been run. Then teams just see who and how we are giving up.   Then the offense dies.  Run game disappears and teams are flat on top of Newton (a quick pass game doesn't even have time often, not that our WRs are built for that either)

Big men allow you to compete upfront as Gettlemen says....

Not every team has a perfect line..we all are playing equal amount of men on the field..it is called film study..Ron and shula are just not smart enough to counterpucnch.  They go in with one plan that is it..If it works good but yes halftime teams figure out what you do. especially if you do not change and that is what Denver said at the SB. Try something different. No team is perfect. That is why Belcheck is the best coach in the league he knows what he got and he knows what his opponents have..you don't hear him complaining about the talent..the coach and coordinators help picked the talent.  Coaches we have are just not smart enough and now we have loss some playets some who were  doing their job coaching and injuries.  We don't have enough talent anymore to mask the vad coaching . Teams have figured out that we have the talent just not the coaches. Don't give me this hog wash about being out manned.

[GoobyPls]

4 minutes ago, stbugs said:

And yet, even with all of the injuries, if our coaching was up to snuff, our special teams not crappy again (again, coaching), we should be at worst 6-3. We should have beaten Denver, we should have beaten Tampa and we should have beaten KC. We blew all 3 games. We could have beaten NO and Minnesota, but there were multiple failures there, so not a should have.

Also, I think we run a lot more max protection because our main passing game is 7 step drops. Go watch the Minnesota Giants game. One week after our loss all the sacks we gave up. Watch how Manning throws the ball away really quickly. Same DL for Minnesota, same pressure (I watched the entire game), but a different result. The Giants got rolled, but do you know who caught the most passes? Bobby Rainey a RB. Do you know what their best play of the game was? A 67 yard screen pass to a RB. Do you know what our best play was? A 50+ yard TD screen pass to Fozzie, nullified by a penalty. Do you think Manning would have sat in the end zone getting a safety. Heck, we lost Oher on that play.

I'm sorry that you guys don't seem to understand that our OL is better than we think it is, but is always put in bad spots. PFF graded our OL as top 5 in 2015. So, if we are bottom 10 in sacks per pass play, maybe there is something we aren't doing correctly. We seem to do it correctly in spurts like the first half in Denver, but then we magically fall back to the deep drops because we know Cam could potentially make every throw on the field. How about we save that so that he can do that when D's aren't expecting it instead of on 3rd and 18 and still in game ending FG range against the Chiefs?

Many teams use seven step drops. Go look at the Seahawks, Raiders or Steelers they hardly ever use max protection and they use 4 or 5 receivers sets constantly. We use max protection cause our pass blocking is bad plain and simple. Go look at our record when we are trailing by double digits and the opposing defense knows we are gonna pass. It's among the worst in the NFL. 

 

[CRA]

12 minutes ago, GoobyPls said:

The Broncos pass rush was so good they could deal with max protection with just 4 rushing.

 

Teams are also not scared of going man to man against our WR, which is more bad news for our pass protection.

Broncos used the green dog blitz when we max protected and Phillips basically said the entire NFL was foolish for not doing the same in 2015.  Rest of the league when we max protected basically let defenders be removed from plays

Broncos brought more when we maxed protected.  That basically is the green dog blitz.  You send aLB as a blitzer when the opponent adds a blocker.  Basically the max protect doesn't exist and everyone has to put a body on a body. 

 

[Ivan The Awesome]

In the end, the teams reflects the coaches persona. This leads me to believe that Rivera rests a little too much on his Laurels. This team rests too much on its laurels. 

 

Get a huge lead. Oh it's enough. Just put it in Cruise control..

 

Oh crap we're behind...we better start trying now..

 

 

All these symptoms are all over. From players to coaching staff. Even Gettleman has shown this with being a bit less proactive as far as personnel this year. I think it has a lot to do with the SB last year.  "Oh we're good, no need for big changes." 

 

When in reality you lost a top CB, A lot of leadership in the back field, and did no address the need for a pass rush on the outside. Again, resting on your laurels. That seems to be the theme. 

[NanuqoftheNorth]

1 hour ago, stbugs said:

They've got 3 points in 3 quarters. A FG there ends the game and Cam doesn't feel any pressure to throw a pick 6, heck we probably just run anyway.

Calling two pass plays with deep drops is inexcusable. There is zero reason to risk not getting the FG.

...So stupid and basically ended our season.

This

[ShutDwn]

Threw it 43 times and ran it 26 and people say they took their foot off the gas. Passed 13/20 plays on the long drive.

We couldn't run on a team that is 30th against the run with 4.7 YPC and gave up 200 to the Jags and that stat is including our games.

those three straight plays to end the 20 play drive were 100% on Gino, Williams and Turner. Cam could've run for a first on the first down.

 

[top dawg]

1 hour ago, stbugs said:

Now I know where the GM bashers are coming from (not saying you are), but what they are thinking. Hey Shula's fine, the problem is we don't have solid players at every single position. Last year we started guys on retirement's door at CB, S and DE and our tackles were Remmers and Oher and we were 17-2. Robert McClain was our starting CB in the playoffs or do people forget that? I don't think Oher -> Williams is really that much of a drop off, so I don't agree that the problem is just players. I think IMHO, it shows that our coaching is so far below teams like NE who can absorb all kinds of injuries/losses and shuffling on the OL with game planning. Our coaching appears to look good when our team has enough talent to overcome the poor game planning.

To be fair, the Pats probably have the best coaching staff in the game, beginning with Billy B who develops opposition-specific game plans probably better than any coach in NFL history. That's a very high bar. 

Part of the magic of last season was the fact that we had some guys at "retirement's door" who had enough experience and saavy to keep the opposition honest. And, once they gelled with the youngsters, it was a great match. The most notable part was the fact that we basically fielded a pedestrian group of receivers that on paper should not have been able to achieve the things that they did, but Rivera and Shula found a way, largely supported by the exemplary play of Cam who had cleaned up some of his mechanics, but, more importantly, was consistently making better decisions. So, I think it's arguable that the talent overcame poor game planning or coaching last season, and not the other way around. People just want to gloss over the fact that Rivera is a two-time COTY, last year getting the nod largely based upon the perception that he did an oustanding job coaching up a team that many thought was dead in the water once KB went down. I highly doubt 95 percent of coaches could have done what he did last season under such circumstances. What he and Shula did was extraordinary, and you really can't do what they did offensively with poor game planning. That being said, I suggested last year in some thread praising Shula that his situational play calling and adjustments at the half were still suspect. He's great when things are going great, but falters when the game isn't going to hus script, and honestly I believe that problem has rubbed off on Rivera, or perhaps it's Rivera's own conservative nature and philosophy. Either way, I think that we could stand sone creative infusion on the offensive side of the ball.

Funny you mention the talent level as kind of masking poor game planning (if it is in fact poor game planning), because the talent level speaks more to Gettleman IMHO, than poor game planning by the coaches. You mention Oher and Williams and McClain. These are probably guys that many woukd consider back-ups on other teams, and the Super Bowl, at least in reference to Oher and McClain (not just blaming them, mind you), should have been an indicator that you might want to upgrade these positions either via the draft, or especially free agency. That's just the way I see it. The 17 wins is nice. Wins are always nice. But, a Super Bowl win is the goal.

I am not a Gettleman basher---I still believe that he can fix this---but I believe that he misjudged several things this offseason (with the big head coming off a 17-2 season and Super Bowl appearance), the biggest being the absolute need for veteran leadership in the defensive secondary.  You just can't fake it like you can on the offensive side of the ball. A certain level of talent and experience has to be there for you to hold up, especially with these experienced big-time QBs and receivers in the NFL.  Gettleman gambled and crapped out, but I am not going to call for his head this "early" in his tenure. He has done enough for me to give him some benefit of doubt, and frankly I want to see him succeed because I like him.  Now, depending on the coming offseason and the results next season, I could turn on him, but not now. I think he has shown super potential managing the cap, but mixed results drafting and in free agency. He's going to have to step up his game just as much if not more than anyone else.

[Darvinsun]

7 minutes ago, stbugs said:

The people saying we took our foot off the gas are wrong. We should have taken our foot off the gas more. That was a two sack fiasco to end the 20 play drive. We would have been better with three 0 yard runs and a FG. We would have won the game.


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Didn't  see the game but they just don't know how to coach in- game period. What happen last week they use for the next game which is not even needed because it is a different situation. Can not coach on the level that is needed.. That is why we lost the Superbowl...All things were aligned for us to win except the most important one that takes to win a superbowl  good coaching not great but good.. Talent and being good on both sides of the ball can get you there but coaching gets you the win.

 

[Cpt slay a ho]

Personnel. You can only scheme so much until players just have to beat the man in front of them


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[CRA]

5 minutes ago, Cpt slay a ho said:

Personnel. You can only scheme so much until players just have to beat the man in front of them


Sent from my iPhone using CarolinaHuddle

Truth. 

People keep acting like we can just continuously scheme out of some pretty glaring flaws.  We go into every game already scheming around them as is.  We are very limited once a team counters that in game. 

Especially against defenses with solid talent.  Which is why the good defenses completely shut us down at the half. 

[outlaw4]

A good O-line keeps you in games. Ours is held together by scotch tape and Elmer's glue. Adjust all you want but it's going to spring more leaks. In fact, I feel bad O-lines is becoming a problem across the entire league (Dallas has hogged them all, apparently). Teams are having to alter their offenses to rid of the ball faster.

Unfortunately, much of our success last season was attacking deep. That's not there for us this year to build a big enough lead and while there has been an adjustment on our end, we don't quite have the right pieces to hold everything together for 60 minutes. While finding new Uglies sounds like a nice solution, I wonder in retrospect whether any free agents from last offseason would've made a difference today.

I fear that we'll be one of many teams in the Ugly market, especially if the Cowboys make a deep run with their line. In that case, I'd go ahead with the presumption that our O-line will still be an issue next season and adjust accordingly. Personally, I think it's time to show Shula the door because what he has to offer works under circumstances that no longer apply. Seven step drops in the second half invites disaster.

Now, there's other reasons but for me, getting beat in the trenches will derail just about any team and erase any lead.