Short thinking of wins. Contract on the back burner...

[Snake]

On 10/24/2016 at 7:39 PM, OneBadCat said:

Maybe that's why DG should get a DE worth their weight and not ask too much of our best players to carry the scheme and the rest of the team.

KK has been single blocked almost as much as these DEs you think so poorly of. 

[Benotheking]

2 hours ago, top dawg said:

I don't believe that either D-Lo or Barnidge represented "core" players for us, but I do believe they represent lost opportunities for us considering their play with their new teams. 

I don't know if it was you, but you just can't put Barnidge's newfound productivity on the fact that "Cleveland didn't have any receivers." That's a little weak. After all, the NFL consists of professionals at the end of the day. Barnidge was a cost-effective (which we very much needed) opportunity that we just let walk away because of misjudgment.

D-Lo probably was on his way out anyway because he was not so cost-effective, but you would have liked to see G-man make a semblance of an attempt to keep him by offering a much lower contract---if nothing else, but for the sake of familiarity, continuity and insurance. 

Admittedly, it is all analyzing in retrospect, but just saying. A person doesn't have to be a so-called "core" player to play a key role in either the short term, longer term, or long term. 

As for your argument about the Seahawks and Patriots, you may have somewhat of a point due to one's perspective, but I could argue that out of all the players you mentioned, the time for them as "core" players to their respective teams was coming to an end. Some of them have not only looked very much human with their new teams, but like outright "trash." 

At the end of the day, I can accept letting a player go for economic reasons. Business is business. Sometimes you must use a Band-Aid. But I hate to see guys like Barnidge and Willie Snead go elsewhere and markedly improve their play and status in the league. In my opinion that shouldn't happen with a guy who openly touts himself as a supreme evaluator. 

I just hope that Getty's penchant and calculations for big men were on the spot with Vernon Butler. I think that some are discounting his versatility and upside by casting him as solely an NT-type player when he was also brought here to get some rush on the QB (and the Panthers have said as much). He may not be able to replace Short, but provided that we could get another solid DT as Short's replacement, or some DEs that could get a little more push, maybe after it's all said and done Butler's production would make up for any shortcomings if Short departs (because Gettleman is not going to pay him if he continues with the level of play he has exhibited so far this season).

 

 

 

"I don't believe that either D-Lo or Barnidge represented "core" players for us, but I do believe they represent lost opportunities for us considering their play with their new teams"  

Doesn't that have more to do with coaching not getting the most out of our player not motivating them not playing them ? If our players is having more success with other teams then with us then that's on the coaching. Why didn't Gary play more get more reps why didn't we use more two tight end sets? Why didn't we ride the hot hand with D-LO? Even D-Lo said it was hard to get into a groove with the panthers and that he lost weight when he got to pitt. Why didn't he cut weight here?

 

    “I don't know if it was you, but you just can't put Barnidge's newfound productivity on the fact that "Cleveland didn't have any receivers." That's a little weak. After all, the NFL consists of professionals at the end of the day. Barnidge was a cost-effective (which we very much needed) opportunity that we just let walk away because of misjudgment”.

First that wasn't me. Again who misjudged him the coaching that failed to use him or the G.M that only has to go off of how productive a player is and how is being used?  

 

    “D-Lo probably was on his way out anyway because he was not so cost-effective, but you would have liked to see G-man make a semblance of an attempt to keep him by offering a much lower contract---if nothing else, but for the sake of familiarity, continuity and insurance.

    Admittedly, it is all analyzing in retrospect, but just saying. A person doesn't have to be a so-called "core" player to play a key role in either the short term, longer term, or long term”. Cpantherking mention core player and told him every team losses talent and core player Again can you name me one team that doesn't losses talent core players or good players ? Also other teams have player that has more success with other teams we are not the only team to have that happen to us and won't be the last. Under D.G he also have shown that he is capable of getting other talent from other teams and having that talent have their best season under us.  

 

    “As for your argument about the Seahawks and Patriots, you may have somewhat of a point due to one's perspective, but I could argue that out of all the players you mentioned, the time for them as "core" players to their respective teams was coming to an end. Some of them have not only looked very much human with their new teams, but like outright "trash."

When we released Steve Smith and D-Lo they were coming off one of their worst season of their career so you can make the argument that they were not as effective as in the past. This year Steve smith is hurt and D-Lo is averaging under 4ypc. So how effective would they have been here ? I give you some of those players didn't work out with their other teams but Chandler Jones Max unger and Russell Okung is playing the same or better with their other teams.  

 

    “At the end of the day, I can accept letting a player go for economic reasons. Business is business. Sometimes you must use a Band-Aid. But I hate to see guys like Barnidge and Willie Snead go elsewhere and markedly improve their play and status in the league. In my opinion that shouldn't happen with a guy who openly touts himself as a supreme evaluator”.

No one is perfect everyone G.M has overrated talent and underrated talent. Gary not having success with us have more to do with coaching and i'll give you Snead wish we could have kept him knowing with we know now but at that time no one was upset  that we released Willie Snead off our practice squad. We can go into every G.M past and point out that player that they passed on from the draft to UDFA and free agency.

   

    “I just hope that Getty's penchant and calculations for big men were on the spot with Vernon Butler. I think that some are discounting his versatility and upside by casting him as solely an NT-type player when he was also brought here to get some rush on the QB (and the Panthers have said as much). He may not be able to replace Short, but provided that we could get another solid DT as Short's replacement, or some DEs that could get a little more push, maybe after it's all said and done Butler's production would make up for any shortcomings if Short departs (because Gettleman is not going to pay him if he continues with the level of play he has exhibited so far this season).”

Agreed

[TheRed]

Eh, Barnidge was hardly an afterthought by the fans when he was here. Literally nobody expected him to do anything. Anyone claiming otherwise is simply lying. As for DeAngelo, he is not the same player he is now that he was when he left Carolina. I personally doubt he would have just overnight turned into a guy that suddenly wanted to improve without getting cut for being overpaid, and contributing next to nothing on, and off the field.

I have no ill will toward either, but what's done is done.

If you want to talk about any former player doing well that we whiffed on, that would be Norman. Panthers fans can lie to themselves, I don't blame them, but we needed Josh this season. Anyone with eyes, and a functioning brain could see that.

[CPantherKing]

11 hours ago, Benotheking said:

So now Gary was a core player?

No he was not a core player. He was a valuable back up.

There are only 10 to 12 core players on a team, and they should be the highest paid players on the team. You are taking two separate arguments and merging them. I have never once said D LO or Barnidge were core players. They were excellent value as back ups. The point with that argument was they have not been replaced with similar or better talent. The constant decline of the roster is what that details.

11 hours ago, Benotheking said:

D-Lo had 3 down years before he was released in 2012

He was not released in 2012. He was released in the 2015 off season, and there is no question he is a top talent for back up RB.

11 hours ago, Benotheking said:

Is Charles Johnson still a core player?

No. Charles Johnson is done. He was done after the leg whip that took him out in 2013. He had a solid comeback, but last season underlined the severity of his injury. His quickness is gone and he is just trying to get by on his experience/knowledge like Jared Allen last season.

A core player consists of 10 to 12 players on a roster. They are past their rookie contracts and have been retained. They average $8 to 10m per season between them and account for 80% of the team's production. Those are core players. Preferably 6 offense and 6 defense.

11 hours ago, Benotheking said:

But yet if he amount 10+ sacks with another team you would classify him as a core because you find any kind of way to bash D.G.

No, I would not classify him as core. I would however criticize the front office if they let CJ go and replace him with a lesser player at a similar acquisition cost. CJ is the best DE right now. That is telling about the front office.

11 hours ago, Benotheking said:

New England just lost Jones and Revis and replaced them with no one near a core player talent.

Jones was not a core player. He was at the end of his rookie contract and was not retained. Ninkovich is a core player, and Jones was replaced by Chris Long. That is how you replace a player. Not throwing in a rookie or a 3rd year player who can not be trusted. Chris Long will be a rented player like Revis. Neither of them are core players. You can rent a player to make your unit SB ready.

11 hours ago, Benotheking said:

Seahawks just lost Browner Maxwell Unger Lynch Okung and replaced them with a bunch of udfa that's no where near core player talent.

Seahawks core is Wilson, Graham, Baldwin, Avril, Bennett, Sherman, Thomas,  Wagner, Wright, and Chancellor. Yes, they lost Lynch, but that was due to retirement. That was not caused by the front office releasing him. The players you list outside of Lynch were not core players. They were role players. The front office was not trying to build around them.

Now, if the front office were trying to build around Ealy on the DL and Bradberry in the secondary, then that front office would be making a huge mistake by getting rid of all their core DBs and DEs.

10 hours ago, Benotheking said:

If we didn't use Gary the right way or used him at all that's on Ron and coaching staff. How is that a D.G problem? D.G has no power when it comes to playing players.

DG has a lot of power when it comes to playing players. Look at how he leveraged Rivera to play his Bradberry, Worley, and Ealy this season. Just refuse to give the HC any other options and he has to play them. It has nothing to do with the HC using a player when it comes to talent retention. That is the lack of awareness/foresight by the front office. They clearly fail to see/evaluate their players talent.

10 hours ago, Benotheking said:

You can not pick and choose who replaces who. Steve Smith was the number 1 WR now KB is our number 1. I think that classify as a replacement.

Then you would be incorrect. KB is a #2 being forced to play #1 btw. A player fills a role, and KB does not replace the role Smith left. KB replaces the role left by LaFell who replaced the role left by Muhammad. When KB starts playing the slot more, going on crossing routes on 3rd down more, pushing the defense down the field more and going in motion more, then we can discuss whether he is filling Smith's role. You have an X, Y, and Z. Smith and KB do not play the same role. That would be like saying Star and KK play the same role. Star is horrible at the 3 tech and KK is average at the 1 tech.

10 hours ago, Benotheking said:

If D Lo was still here there was no way he would settle for a backup spot and take less carries. Then giving his cap releasing him was the right choice.Plus you have to factor in cam getting carries. How was that working out for us in the past with splitting carries between those three ? It seemed like no one could get into a groove.

Cam gets his 120 carries every season. Even when Williams was here. Your factor is a non-factor. I do not believe you know how the Panthers have divided the snaps for the running game. Williams only topped 200+ carries 3 seasons as a Panther. 2 were during Stewart's rookie and sophomore season, and another season when Stewart was injured. Williams was happy with 150 carries per season. 160 per the top 2 backs and 120 carries for Cam. The Panthers have about 500 carries per season. Neither RB was able to be a work horse, and it showed last year with the wear and tear on Stewart, which took its toll late in the season. The problem is CAP, Fozzy, and Tolbert are not capable back up RBs in big games.