Short thinking of wins. Contract on the back burner...

[h0llywood]

With all the single coverage and donuts KK is putting up, this is what I feel like he's doing on every play

 

 

[CPF4LIFE]

Go ahead and let him walk and enjoy watching us get gashed threw the middle every game. It will be the Norman situation all over again. You think having the worst secondary is bad, having the worst rUN D will be a terminal illness. Short isn't getting sacks but he is still a monster run defender.

[rico6]

6 hours ago, CPantherKing said:

Clearly people do not understand the difference between a 1 tech and 3 tech.

KK is more valuable than Star, and he will get paid here or somewhere else.

Is it KKs fault teams are able to freely double a 3 tech? KK is the only 3 tech that gets doubled. Star does not even get doubled when he is in a 3 tech.

It is the job of the 1 tech to draw double teams, and an edge rusher to take advantage of the edge when the 3 tech is doubled. What is hard to stomach from a 1 tech is when they are singled so the OL can double the 3 tech, and the 1 tech can not even push his man in to the QBs lap. The Saints did that a lot with doubles on KK and challenging Star to beat his blocker when they passed the ball - especially with their back against the end zone. Not saying I expect a 1 tech DT like Star to be a great pass rusher, but he has to collapse the pocket if he is not doubled on a pass play. There is a reason Star is not an every down player.

Good 3 tech DTs are harder to find in the NFL. That is why they get paid. Star is a great 1 tech against the run and that is it. Star struggles in the 3 tech, and his ability to rush the passer or pursue down the LoS is lacking.

If the Panthers lose KK as their 3 tech against the run and the pass, that defense is going to look even worse with that secondary. You better hope Butler is an instant success against the pass and learns quickly to stop playing on skates against the run while shouldering 70%+ of the defensive snaps.

Bradberry and Butler as replacements for Norman and KK. smh. That is like banking on Mayo as an instant replacement for Luke.

Agreed. I'd only be on-board letting Short walk if Gettles actually has a coherent plan to at least replicate or get marginal talent in return (trades, free agency, a GOOD draft) I don't mind not breaking the bank for Norman, but replacing him with Worley and Bradberry was heinous. 

[CPantherKing]

3 hours ago, CPF4LIFE said:

Go ahead and let him walk and enjoy watching us get gashed threw the middle every game. It will be the Norman situation all over again. You think having the worst secondary is bad, having the worst rUN D will be a terminal illness. Short isn't getting sacks but he is still a monster run defender.

Gary Barnidge 2013, Steve Smith 2014, D'Angelo Williams 2015, Josh Norman 2016, Kawann Short 2017...

Slowly deconstructing the team.

Their replacements: Brandon Williams/Ed Dickson, Jericho Cotchery/Philly Brown, Fozzy Whittaker/Cameron Artis-Payne, James Bradberry/Darryl Worley, Vernon Butler/TBD.

Not even the 2 players combined at each position can replace the talent level left by the void.

A slow painful death.

[Benotheking]

31 minutes ago, CPantherKing said:

Gary Barnidge 2013, Steve Smith 2014, D'Angelo Williams 2015, Josh Norman 2016, Kawann Short 2017...

Slowly deconstructing the team.

Their replacements: Brandon Williams/Ed Dickson, Jericho Cotchery/Philly Brown, Fozzy Whittaker/Cameron Artis-Payne, James Bradberry/Darryl Worley, Vernon Butler/TBD.

Not even the 2 players combined at each position can replace the talent level left by the void.

A slow painful death.

Now your talking out your ass again. First no panther fan was mad that the panthers didn't sign  Gary Barnidge back and I highly doubt you did too.  Yes I give you Josh we should had kept Him for at least this year. KK is not a free agent yet so we don't know how that will play out and we also drafted a high draft pick to replace him if we decide to let him walk. Yes 3 tech pass rushers are hard to find but we don't need a pass rusher 3 tech to win the Super Bowl many teams have won without one.We just need talent at that position which we have.Teams release players and talent all the time we are not the only team that lost talent and we won't be the last. Can you name a team that kept all of their players/talent?We went to the Super Bowl without Gary,Steve and D-LO I think we can go again without KK and Josh.

[CPantherKing]

1 hour ago, Benotheking said:

Teams release players and talent all the time we are not the only team that lost talent and we won't be the last. Can you name a team that kept all of their players/talent?

Releasing players is fine. Releasing core players without replacing them with a core player is not fine.

The Panthers have a very unorganized method of building a competitive team to win a championship with a structure to sustain success following a SB championship, which changes from year to year. This is hazardous for the team's future.

Teams like the Patriots, Steelers, Packers, Seahawks, Broncos, and Ravens retain or replace with equivalent or better talent among their 10 to 12 core players. Player retirement is the exception.

[CPantherKing]

1 hour ago, stbugs said:

LOL at Barnidge. He had 18 receptions in 4 years under Hurney and now he's your example?

The point is the answer was already on the roster and Gettleman messed up to experiment, which has limited Cam. We all know he thrives in a 2 TE set. Gettleman has struggled to find that after losing it. He has settled for Dickson. Gettleman likes a player with inconsistent hands.

1 hour ago, stbugs said:

How about Kelvin Benjamin/Funchess to replace Smith?

They replace Brandon LaFell. They do not fill the role left by Steve Smith. That would be Cotchery, Brown, and Ginn - none come close. That third down slot receiver coming across the middle or coming back for the ball is missed.

1 hour ago, stbugs said:

Also, pretty sure Stewart is the starter at RB.

It is not about the starting RB. That was about the back up RB when the starter goes down. You are reaching to defend Gettleman.

 

You do not look at just the position. You look at the role that needs to be filled.

[LA_Panther]

I think more sacks from Shirt will increase our chances of winning ... just sayin

[The Link]

If KK wants that monster deal similar to Cox, then he needs to start beating those double-teams on a consistent basis like Cox does. If he can't do that and won't budge on his price, then the decision to let him walk becomes a little easier.

[uncfan888]

9 hours ago, stbugs said:

LOL at Barnidge. He had 18 receptions in 4 years under Hurney and now he's your example? A guy who had a career year at age 30 because the Browns have no WRs. He had 13 receptions in each of his first two years with the Browns too. C'mon, let's not be silly, how many balls would he even catch with Olsen still on the team?

How about Kelvin Benjamin/Funchess to replace Smith? Nope, let's try and make poo up and say that Brown and Cotchery replaced Smith. Well maybe you are right, Benjamin played with Smith, oh wait, I was right, he was drafted to replace him. Also, pretty sure Stewart is the starter at RB. Sorry, but paying two RBs top 5 money when everyone in the NFL is devaluing the position is horrendous. We sure did miss DeAngelo's 219 yards and 3.5 ypc from 2014 when we we were the #1 scoring team in 2015. 3 of the 4 guys you listed (Short is on the team, doesn't count) are from the offense and as far as I can tell, their non-presence hasn't been an impact.

The only person of actual impact to the team is Norman, period. Pretty sure Short is still on the team. I know the 1-5 start and people patting you on the back has invigorated you, but you are still the same poo thrower we all know and love. Amazing how you can call yourself a fan when you are enjoying the losing.

Good post. I love watching his dumb ass arguments get exposed 

[Benotheking]

12 hours ago, CPantherKing said:

Releasing players is fine. Releasing core players without replacing them with a core player is not fine.

The Panthers have a very unorganized method of building a competitive team to win a championship with a structure to sustain success following a SB championship, which changes from year to year. This is hazardous for the team's future.

Teams like the Patriots, Steelers, Packers, Seahawks, Broncos, and Ravens retain or replace with equivalent or better talent among their 10 to 12 core players. Player retirement is the exception.

So now Gary was a core player?Are you serious? D-Lo had 3 down years before he was released in 2012 cam almost had more rushing yards then D-Lo so I don't think you can classify him as a core player. Is Charles Johnson still a core player? But yet if he amount 10+ sacks with another team you would classify him as a core because you find any kind of way to bash D.G.

New England just lost Jones and Revis and replaced them with no one near a core player talent.

Seahawks just lost Browner Maxwell Unger Lynch Okung and replaced them with a bunch of udfa that's no where near core player talent.

Agian every team losses core players the panthers are not the only team to do so 

[Benotheking]

13 hours ago, CPantherKing said:

The point is the answer was already on the roster and Gettleman messed up to experiment, which has limited Cam. We all know he thrives in a 2 TE set. Gettleman has struggled to find that after losing it. He has settled for Dickson. Gettleman likes a player with inconsistent hands.

They replace Brandon LaFell. They do not fill the role left by Steve Smith. That would be Cotchery, Brown, and Ginn - none come close. That third down slot receiver coming across the middle or coming back for the ball is missed.

It is not about the starting RB. That was about the back up RB when the starter goes down. You are reaching to defend Gettleman.

 

You do not look at just the position. You look at the role that needs to be filled.

If we didn't use Gary the right way or used him at all that's on Ron and coaching staff. How is that a D.G problem? D.G has no power when it comes to playing players.

You can not pick and choose who replaces who. Steve Smith was the number 1 WR now KB is our number 1. I think that classify as a replacement.

If D Lo was still here there was no way he would settle for a backup spot and take less carries. Then giving his cap releasing him was the right choice.Plus you have to factor in cam getting carries. How was that working out for us in the past with splitting carries between those three ? It seemed like no one could get into a groove.We still went 15-1 and to the Super Bowl without them. I think your reaching for ways to bash D.G.

[csx]

Barnidge has come back down to earth a bit 

[top dawg]

1 hour ago, Benotheking said:

So now Gary was a core player?Are you serious? D-Lo had 3 down years before he was released in 2012 cam almost had more rushing yards then D-Lo so I don't think you can classify him as a core player. Is Charles Johnson still a core player? But yet if he amount 10+ sacks with another team you would classify him as a core because you find any kind of way to bash D.G.

New England just lost Jones and Revis and replaced them with no one near a core player talent.

Seahawks just lost Browner Maxwell Unger Lynch Okung and replaced them with a bunch of udfa that's no where near core player talent.

Agian every team losses core players the panthers are not the only team to do so 

I don't believe that either D-Lo or Barnidge represented "core" players for us, but I do believe they represent lost opportunities for us considering their play with their new teams. 

I don't know if it was you, but you just can't put Barnidge's newfound productivity on the fact that "Cleveland didn't have any receivers." That's a little weak. After all, the NFL consists of professionals at the end of the day. Barnidge was a cost-effective (which we very much needed) opportunity that we just let walk away because of misjudgment.

D-Lo probably was on his way out anyway because he was not so cost-effective, but you would have liked to see G-man make a semblance of an attempt to keep him by offering a much lower contract---if nothing else, but for the sake of familiarity, continuity and insurance. 

Admittedly, it is all analyzing in retrospect, but just saying. A person doesn't have to be a so-called "core" player to play a key role in either the short term, longer term, or long term. 

As for your argument about the Seahawks and Patriots, you may have somewhat of a point due to one's perspective, but I could argue that out of all the players you mentioned, the time for them as "core" players to their respective teams was coming to an end. Some of them have not only looked very much human with their new teams, but like outright "trash." 

At the end of the day, I can accept letting a player go for economic reasons. Business is business. Sometimes you must use a Band-Aid. But I hate to see guys like Barnidge and Willie Snead go elsewhere and markedly improve their play and status in the league. In my opinion that shouldn't happen with a guy who openly touts himself as a supreme evaluator. 

I just hope that Getty's penchant and calculations for big men were on the spot with Vernon Butler. I think that some are discounting his versatility and upside by casting him as solely an NT-type player when he was also brought here to get some rush on the QB (and the Panthers have said as much). He may not be able to replace Short, but provided that we could get another solid DT as Short's replacement, or some DEs that could get a little more push, maybe after it's all said and done Butler's production would make up for any shortcomings if Short departs (because Gettleman is not going to pay him if he continues with the level of play he has exhibited so far this season).