Let's have a rational conversation about our GM

[My Goodness My Guinness]

5 hours ago, Cracka McNasty said:

Hello everyone. At this point in the season I'm willing to concede that Gettleman did a poor job replacing the departing vets from last season. While Allen didn't get many sacks, he still commanded attention. The veteran presence in the secondary is non existent and we are missing the experience something fierce. The idea was to go into this season with the parts from last year's Super Bowl mostly in tact, and that didn't work out so well so far. 

Having conceded this, I'm not on the fire Gettleman bandwagon, and I feel like others need to hop off of it as well. This is a lost season so it seems. While it's disappointing, I don't find myself in a sky is falling mindset like many on here for a number of reasons.

1. This is the first "Bad" season the team has had under Gettleman that can be directly linked to him being at fault. in 2013 we won 12 games which was a huge surprise due to the cap issues we were in. 2014 Gettleman had to cut a ton of fat with contracts and it left us strapped for cash with tons of holes to fill. Hats off to the coaching staff for pulling the division out of their asses and winning it that season because Gettleman even admitted there would be a step backwards that year, and those who didn't expect it obviously weren't paying attention. Anyone who says more should have been done never has an actual answer for what could have been done in place of the decisions Gettleman made. Still, they made the playoffs and set up the team well enough for the next season. 2015 happens and oh what a magical ride it was. Finally free from Cap Hell, Gettleman was able to reach long term contracts with two super stars in Cam and Luke, as well as add talent to the team with the likes of Oher, Tillman, Allen, and Ginn. While they weren't studs, they were upgrades. We lost KB for the season in TC and still managed to make it to the Super Bowl and lose due to poor execution and miscues. Now we have the debacle that is 2016 and all the wise old guys we had last year are gone and replaced with unproven young guys. That's on Gettleman. But it's still only his first year where I feel like he failed on his own, not due to extenuating circumstances. 1 bad year out of 4 does not make me want him gone. 
2. We are good Cap wise. It's not like we're the Saints and have mortgaged our future to be this bad. All the mistakes that Gettleman has made are not long term mistakes. That's something many on here don't seem to understand. While it sucks that we have fallen so far from last year, This isn't a Hurney run team where the shittiest of shitty players are locked up forever into the future with no end in sight to the shittyness. We have our core locked up for the future, and they are a damn good core in Cam, Luke, Olsen, etc. We have some young guys deserving of large paydays coming up in Norwell and Turner. Star will need a new contract too, as will Short. Good news is we will have the cap to do it, and then some. We have money to improve the team unlike seasons past. While this season is a disappointment, I don't foresee it being an issue long term. We're in a good position to be bad if that makes sense. 
3. We've been unlucky. Like it or not, we pulled some BS wins out of our asses last year, and it was friggin great. This year, we have lost every close game we've been in. Add onto that the injury bug has hit us hard compared to last year and we're just not getting the breaks we got a season ago. We aren't at full strength and we're still competing which is a silver lining in the crappy season that is 2016.
4. The team is constantly shooting itself in the foot. Penalties, Turnovers, and poor coaching have also played a large factor in the team's record this year. That's not on Gettleman. That's on the players and coaches on individual plays. I can't blame Gettleman when Cam throws a pick or fumbles, or when KB holds on a run play that goes for 50 on the opposite side of the field, or when Rivera calls a god damn timeout while the Bucs have the ball with under two minutes to go...These are things that are out of Gettleman's control, yet people seem to be forgetting about these huge momentum shifting plays in the games. 

So right now, I'm on the ride it out wagon. 1 year of poor personnel decisions does not make me hate the guy and want him gone. We made the playoffs each of the first 3 seasons he was our GM based largely around the rosters he was able to fill out at a discount price. There is plenty of room for improvements to be made this offseason. We have the money to do so. We need another OT, a pass rushing DE, a Vet presence in the Secondary, and possibly a new kicker. That's doable with the money we have at our disposal. I think it's very possible that Gettleman can address our needs in the offseason and draft. I'm willing to stick a fork in 2016, but not in our GM who put together a Super Bowl team a year ago. If we suck again next year, then yeah, I'll be more salty. But right now, I think cooler heads need to prevail and we just need to ride the storm out. 

A logical, thought out post?? Get the heck out of here!

[FootballLivesMatter]

Gentleman's philosophy back fired on him, but JR gotta take some blame. People don't wanna admit it, but JR is the problem. Hurney and Gettleman are pretty much the same GM. Building through the draft and go the cheapest route in free agency. 

[FootballLivesMatter]

You can only do so much as a GM under JR

[Cpt slay a ho]

Main thing is we shouldn't have ever been close to the position we're in now. How that happen is inexcusable, if we bomb another offseason he should be on the hot seat I doubt it'll happen either way but that's the mind set JR should have IMO 

[Ricky Spanish]

34 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

That whole response was extremely backhanded, or at least the first paragraph or two I read of it.  But shouldnt have expected anything more, as the huddle has come to understand the definition of rational as, "gentle ass kissing, everyone gets a trophy."  I have given CONCRETE reasons as to why I have posted the things I post, you dont recall them because they dont fall in line with your thinking.  I read the "non-idiot" posts from huddlers in all-pro, and they're different in tone, but provide no more in the way of substance.  "It might be this, but i dont know.  Might be that, but not sure about that either.  Here is some guy's bio.  Now let's all have a group hug."  

As far as gettleman, he is not just business.  Just business doesnt rescind a tag on one of your best players leaving you vulnerabke at the position he plays while you get nothing in the way of compensation.  Just business doesnt go out to the press and talk poo about it.  That is an emotional move, driven by ego.  Of you want to believe otherwise, thats up to you, but deep down, you know its the truth.  Neglecting the position in favor of playing several scrub ass rookies would undermine his position of not needing help and letting the young guys develop, which is also driven by ego, which is emotional.  Jeremy even posted a thread citing that as a reason Gettleman wouldn't bring in outside help.  But i guess he is just an emotional, irrational poster too?

See, you frame everything according to what you want to believe.  Depending on the username and your already held beliefs about any given topic, you decide before you even read anything whether it will hold any weight in your thinking.  I give everything equal value and a chance to shift my thinking...  see, in this situation, i said gettleman fuged up well before the season started based off my observations and feelings.  And guess what?  He did.  So, where was i supposed to change my thinking?  Oh well, guess i needed to post some bullshit PFF articles to support my opinion, then it would be worthy of your consumption.

Its gotten to the point of delusion here.  So enjoy your group hugs and kumbaya circles with the "rational" gettleman nuthuggers  finding any fuging scapegoat you can to excuse this fuging mess he created.  Dont mind me, ill be posting long emotional paragraphs lacking APA citations for validation. 

 

First off, I didn't mean for it to come off as backhanded, I really didn't. Reading back on it I can see how it comes off as condescending at points and that was my fault. My bad dude, I really didn't mean it that way. It was just me trying to get into your mindset and how you perceive things. Now onto my rebuttle:

I feel like you and I both have our own ideas of the narrative of the offseason. Where I saw a business decision in which Gettleman determined that the money that was to go to Norman would be better spent in other areas of the team, you saw a move that was strictly ego based on Gettleman's part.

From my perspective and all the evidence I have seen it was strictly business. From what I see with your argument is a lot of "filling in the blanks". I don't recall seeing articles about Gettleman posturing about rescinding the tag. I remember reading articles about how negotiations just weren't working out. I don't know, I might have missed something. But from my perspective it seems like you are attributing the "ego" narrative to Gettleman when there is only evidence of "Business" narrative. It seems, to me at least, the blanks are being filled as to how these things could happen in the most rational way you can create, and to you that is the narrative that Gettleman wanted to swing the big dick and make Norman suckle it. I just don't see it that way, if you provide me with evidence backing that up, I might could - I've been wrong before and would certainly welcome it. I'm not framing the situation as what I want to believe any more so than you are based on everything I've read. We both feel like we're right on this. But from everything I've read in the offseason, Norman had a guy that wasn't well enough equipped to negotiate a contract, overextended his hand, threatened a holdout, and Gettleman said "I don't need this hanging over our heads this season". Norman himself didn't know what was going on, became distraught at the news, and quickly signed with Washington with the help of a second agent, then swiftly fired his first due to the poor communication and negotiating tactics from agent#1. Norman said he would have played under the tag but Agent#1 seemed to be the hardassed ego driven one that refused to negotiate. Not Gettleman. Not Norman. The dumbass agent in charge of the contract negotiations.

That's why your position confuses me because of all the things I've read on the happening don't add up to me. 

As for not signing someone else for the secondary, you got me there. But like I've said in the past, he could have made an effort to do so yet the player he targeted could have taken a contract elsewhere. Hell he did sign Boykin but had to release him due to a lingering health issue. Boykin was passed over by multiple teams until he was eventually signed and immediately placed on IR. So he did in fact make an effort, that effort just fell through and fell short. From my perspective plan A was sign Norman. Plan B was sign vet corner with upside which was Boykin who was not healthy and had to be released. Plan C was roll Win Bene and the rooks. Plan D was release Bene and roll dicks out in the wind with the rookies for the rest of the year.

So while I agree he could have done something else, it's not like he didn't try. His plans just fell through. Should have had a better plan, won't argue that. 

[CarolinaJami']

Don't really get all of the Gettleman hate. He doesn't play DE, OT, CB or S. This is just as much on the players and coaches.

Kony Ealy goes off in the biggest game a player can play in. He was been non existent this season. How is that on Gettleman?

KK felt he was worth basically what is left of our salary cap. Where has he been? G-man could have easily paid him all of that money and we could be 2 mil under the cap with a 1-5 record.

Michael Oher gets a concussion and we have to shift the entire O-line around. Never ideal.

James Bradberry comes in and places at a good level for a rookie and he goes down with turf toe and the secondary has to be moved around.

This list can go on and on with issues that actually happen on the football field. Let's be honest a few more made field goals, less penalties, fewer turnovers and we are 4-2 with this exact same roster. And nobody is asking for an interview with the GM in the middle of the season. Gettleman gets some blame, yes I would agree. But to say it is all his fault makes no sense.

[Ricky Spanish]

3 minutes ago, CarolinaJami' said:

Don't really get all of the Gettleman hate. He doesn't play DE, OT, CB or S. This is just as much on the players and coaches.

Kony Ealy goes off in the biggest game a player can play in. He was been non existent this season. How is that on Gettleman?

KK felt he was worth basically what is left of our salary cap. Where has he been? G-man could have easily paid him all of that money and we could be 2 mil under the cap with a 1-5 record.

Michael Oher gets a concussion and we have to shift the entire O-line around. Never ideal.

James Bradberry comes in and places at a good level for a rookie and he goes down with turf toe and the secondary has to be moved around.

This list can go on and on with issues that actually happen on the football field. Let's be honest a few more made field goals, less penalties, fewer turnovers and we are 4-2 with this exact same roster. And nobody is asking for an interview with the GM in the middle of the season. Gettleman gets some blame, yes I would agree. But to say it is all his fault makes no sense.

Essentially the TL:DR of my first post. 

[carolinajay]

3 hours ago, FootballLivesMatter said:

Building through the draft and go the cheapest route in free agency

The panthers had $14M tied up to the tag throughout most of free agency. They weren't exactly working with $20-40M in cap space.The team didn't go cheap in 2011 and look what happened.

[Proudiddy]

17 minutes ago, Cracka McNasty said:

First off, I didn't mean for it to come off as backhanded, I really didn't. Reading back on it I can see how it comes off as condescending at points and that was my fault. My bad dude, I really didn't mean it that way. It was just me trying to get into your mindset and how you perceive things. Now onto my rebuttle:

I feel like you and I both have our own ideas of the narrative of the offseason. Where I saw a business decision in which Gettleman determined that the money that was to go to Norman would be better spent in other areas of the team, you saw a move that was strictly ego based on Gettleman's part.

From my perspective and all the evidence I have seen it was strictly business. From what I see with your argument is a lot of "filling in the blanks". I don't recall seeing articles about Gettleman posturing about rescinding the tag. I remember reading articles about how negotiations just weren't working out. I don't know, I might have missed something. But from my perspective it seems like you are attributing the "ego" narrative to Gettleman when there is only evidence of "Business" narrative. It seems, to me at least, the blanks are being filled as to how these things could happen in the most rational way you can create, and to you that is the narrative that Gettleman wanted to swing the big dick and make Norman suckle it. I just don't see it that way, if you provide me with evidence backing that up, I might could - I've been wrong before and would certainly welcome it. I'm not framing the situation as what I want to believe any more so than you are based on everything I've read. We both feel like we're right on this. But from everything I've read in the offseason, Norman had a guy that wasn't well enough equipped to negotiate a contract, overextended his hand, threatened a holdout, and Gettleman said "I don't need this hanging over our heads this season". Norman himself didn't know what was going on, became distraught at the news, and quickly signed with Washington with the help of a second agent, then swiftly fired his first due to the poor communication and negotiating tactics from agent#1. Norman said he would have played under the tag but Agent#1 seemed to be the hardassed ego driven one that refused to negotiate. Not Gettleman. Not Norman. The dumbass agent in charge of the contract negotiations.

That's why your position confuses me because of all the things I've read on the happening don't add up to me. 

As for not signing someone else for the secondary, you got me there. But like I've said in the past, he could have made an effort to do so yet the player he targeted could have taken a contract elsewhere. Hell he did sign Boykin but had to release him due to a lingering health issue. Boykin was passed over by multiple teams until he was eventually signed and immediately placed on IR. So he did in fact make an effort, that effort just fell through and fell short. From my perspective plan A was sign Norman. Plan B was sign vet corner with upside which was Boykin who was not healthy and had to be released. Plan C was roll Win Bene and the rooks. Plan D was release Bene and roll dicks out in the wind with the rookies for the rest of the year.

So while I agree he could have done something else, it's not like he didn't try. His plans just fell through. Should have had a better plan, won't argue that. 

Now, I appreciate this reply.  Thank you for trying...

I've posted this before, but you may have missed it in my emotional rambling:

Quote

 

"I'd like to think agents have figured out they can't scare me," Gettleman told the publication. "They can't squeeze me. I'm not going to panic. I'm not going to give money away. It's a waste of time."

More than one player rep has mentioned that quote to me as off-putting -- especially given the way Norman's franchise-tag boondoggle played out. It certainly has not gone unnoticed, especially as the Panthers spoke often about re-investing their savings by letting Norman walk but to this point have yet to really spend it.

Generally, GMs do best by keeping a decidedly low profile and saying less while they do more, letting coaches take bullets in the media. Remarks like this have made some waves in the locker room, sources said, and has gotten players talking at a time when many were already a bit baffled by how Norman's contract situation played out.

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/why-panthers-gms-tough-talk-after-letting-josh-norman-walk-isnt-such-a-smart-move/

So, my "filling in the blanks" aren't just some wild assumption I conjured up out of what we knew.  I don't know how else you can interpret that.  Regardless of what happened on Josh and his agent's end, this is all Gettleman's side.  He rescinded the offer, cutting off all negotiations.  He then bragged that agents can't shake him.  As La Canfora states in the article, GMs don't do that.  Why would you do that?  Because you get a kick out of it ego-wise.  How would you interpret that, because again, to go out and state that in the media isn't doing you favors long-term with agents and players, so it isn't good for business.

[CPantherKing]

1. 7-8-1 is not a good season. 2013 was a hands off season for Gettleman per JR. 2015 was definitely a good year and the match ups favored the Panthers weak points at OT and DE. I was pleasantly surprised at how the front office approached the secondary in 2015 given its debacle with the secondary in 2014. I thought they figured it out and may just replace Harper. Nope. They found a unit that worked well together and blew it up, because it is so easy to find a franchise CB and safety (Coleman) who work well together. Bad mistake, but this GM loves to start at square one and build, so it should not have been a surprise.

2. The cap was never a problem outside of 2013, and I believe the Panthers did just fine in that cap strapped year with the foundation they had built. Some make it sound like the salary cap was a huge issue for 5 to 10 seasons. It was one season, and it was easily managed. This myth of a salary cap holding the team back has always been ridiculous. A child could have managed the salary cap from 2013 to 2015.

3. Unlucky? Having Cam, Kuechly, Kali, Stewart, and KK out for the season in the first 6 weeks would be unlucky. This pain in 2016 is self induced due  to cutting Norman, moving Coleman to SS, stocking the secondary with rookie CBs, neglecting the DE position, neglecting the OT position, neglecting the 3rd down slot receiver role, overpaying a kicker, and neglecting OL depth is not bad luck. All of that has had a direct effect on how the Panthers defense is now easy to game plan for and how the Panthers struggle to convert on 3rd down, which has led to giving up 2nd half leads.

4. The inability of the defense to create turnovers and stop offenses from scoring TDs following an offensive turnover is directly related to the secondary being ineffective and confused. As for penalties killing drives, this is negligible. The Panthers have had scoring drives/TDs that have included multiple penalties. The only time a penalty is an issue is when it keeps a drive from scoring. Look at the ratio of scoring drives to unsuccessful drives that have had at least 1 penalty. You will be surprised how this rarely impacts a drive.

[uncfan888]

Most active hurney, I mean Cpk,  has been on this board.  Smh

[The Lobo]

6 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

Now, I appreciate this reply.  Thank you for trying...

I've posted this before, but you may have missed it in my emotional rambling:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/why-panthers-gms-tough-talk-after-letting-josh-norman-walk-isnt-such-a-smart-move/

 

 

I couldn't quote the rest of your article, but I didn't know his comments were causing a rift among the players. If true we may be in trouble for quite sometime. It makes sense the players would be irked by gettys comments. I'd bet he's gonna do damage control this offseason.

[Ricky Spanish]

10 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

Now, I appreciate this reply.  Thank you for trying...

I've posted this before, but you may have missed it in my emotional rambling:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/why-panthers-gms-tough-talk-after-letting-josh-norman-walk-isnt-such-a-smart-move/

 

 

That's fair enough, but the link from the original interview with BBR even indicates that the agent negotiating the contract with Gettleman was a novice:

Quote

Gettleman's also unlikely to blink first in a staredown. Whether it's an agent who's inexperienced with NFL contracts like Norman's or someone who's been around the league nearly as long as Gettleman, he's not going to pay much above value.

That to me gives the quote you found the context I was talking about. So we both read the same things, just interpreted it different ways. Although I will say that out of context in the framing of the article that you posted, it definitely paints the entire Norman contract fiasco as an ego issue, where the BBR paints it more as a no nonsense business issue. 

[carolinajay]

3 hours ago, CPantherKing said:

The cap was never a problem outside of 2013

not true