Let's have a rational conversation about our GM

[Malt Liquor]

3 minutes ago, PantherPhann89 said:

We just sign a 3rd if not 4th if not practice squad TE from New Orleans, Chris Manhertz. What's rational about that?

Nothing at all maybe they plan on converting him into a speed rusher on defense... This move makes absolutely no fuggin sense.

[MV%doe]

Bunch of ...... Nevermind.

Everyone thats saying "we have PLENTY OF CAP SPACE!!!!!!!!!!" please somehow get your neutrons to fire better. Understand the reasons why that is and when it happened, plus never forget the cap hell that was leftd before. I fell I need to break out the crayons for some.... Here gos

This is the first time in four loooooong dam years where the panthers had "real" cap space. NOT A LARGE NUMBER JUST ENOUGH ROOM TO BREATHE. If you remember will enough the panthers had around 12 million BEFORE Josh Norman, that was in the mid-pack league wise. Once it was apparent that Norman and crew where holding out, that meant for a unique issue. Rather than be toyed with Dave made a choice to resend the tag, thus adding 14 million to the cap. It was after all three periods of free agency, no one was leftd. Stop acting like Dave held onto 27 million during the beginning/middle of free agency.

Hell I'm mad too, but I'm not a dumbarse either. 

You people only believe what you want too, regardless of reason and logic. Pointless to waste my time, you people want to bitach cause that's what bitaches do. Also fcuk you fortune tellers in this forum saying you always hated ron "two time coach of year" Rivera and Dave" best four years in panther history" gelletman!

[CPcavedweller]

This forum is garbage and Panthers fans in general are being far too fickle and are blaming the wrong person. 

[PantherPhann89]

41 minutes ago, Malt Liquor said:

Nothing at all maybe they plan on converting him into a speed rusher on defense... This move makes absolutely no fuggin sense.

With multiple weak positions on the roster, we cut a vet CB, play a LB in the slot against NO's fastest WR, sign a TE that's probably not better than our #3 TE and waive a CB. So what have we done to improve the team sine the start of preseason?

[CollegePanther]

We have won 1/6 of our games.

Rational. 

[CPantherKing]

19 hours ago, carolinajay said:

The panthers could not afford to pay Mike Mitchell (5yr/$25M) or Captain and they released Steve Smith who would have counted for $25M over 3 had he stayed on the roster.

Keeping a DE who recorded 15 sacks was the right move, Hardy's off the field situation derailed it. 

All the free agencies the panthers signed were relatively cheap (Harper, Jericho, Cason, etc) why do you think gettleman resorted to cheap free agents because he had an surplus of cap?

I avoid salary cap conversations due the complex economics of the salary cap coupled with the myth/excuse of being in cap hell. Since I am being engaged with this myth, I will respond to it in length just this one time.

The Panthers saved $300k in 2014 cap space by cutting Smith and signing Cotchery. Steve Smith would have cost the team $7m. Cotchery's acquisition cost was $6.7m. Cotchery's acquisition cost in 2015 was $6m. Now we all know Cotchery is not worth $6 to 7m per season. What kind of cap problems do you have when you can burn money on Cotchery? There are no cap problems.

We know about the 13m wasted on Hardy.

Mitchell cost $2.2m in 2014. Captain cost $3.3m. LaFell cost $2m. Ginn cost $2.3m. Total = $9.8m

The Panthers carried over $5m in cap space to 2015.

Then they spent another $5m in cap space on Roman Harper, Thomas DeCoud, Antoine Cason, and Jason Avant.

Jordan Gross planned on playing in 2014 with his buddies, but retired earlier when Steve Smith and Travelle Wharton were removed from the Panthers plans.

If the Panthers chose to keep Steve Smith, Brandon LaFell, Ted Ginn Jr, Mike Mitchell, Charles Godfrey, Captain Munnerlyn, and Jordan Gross 

...and...

opted not to acquire Jerricho Cotchery, Jason Avant, Brenton Bersin, Roman Harper, Thomas DeCoud, Antonie Cason, and Nate Chandler/Mike Remmers

... then they spend $2.5m more, and are still $2.5m under the cap.

Now, I ask you, would you pay $2.5m more to trade out the above mentioned players for the 2014 team? Or was the salary cap so strapped that the Panthers could not have found $2.5m?

The Panthers could have done the above and still decided to spend the wasted $13m on Julius Peppers and Jared Allen from 2014 to 2016. Then cut one of the 3 DEs after 2015 when you are ready to sign Norman. The books would be clear for KK and Star by 2017 with hopefully young DEs stepping in after 2 to 3 seasons behind Peppers, Allen, and CJ.

So, your 2014-2016 defense would look like this: Peppers, Star, KK, Allen/CJ, Shaq/Klein, Kuechly, TD, Norman, Coleman/Godfrey (FS), Mitchell, Tillman, Captain, and Bene.

The offense would look like this from 2014-2016: Cam, Stewart, Tolbert, Smith, KB, LaFell, Ginn, Funchess, Brown, Olsen, Barnidge, Veldheer, Norwell, Kalil, Turner and Gross/Seantrel Henderson/La'el Collins/Daryl Williams.

Money clears off the books for Peppers, Allen, CJ, TD, Tillman, Godfrey, Captain, Stewart, Tolbert, Smith, LaFell, Ginn, Kalil, and Gross between 2016-2018.

This could have been done with some intellect and hustle. Now, the question: why was it not done?

I believe Godfrey is an acceptable diminishing return for 2014 to get more value out of the roster, but he is out come 2015 for Coleman if he were unable to improve.

From 2013-2016 you now have a team without any major holes and is now an incubator for rookies. A team that is primed for a consistent 4 year run at the top of the NFL.

The numbers work. There was no cap problem in 2014. People forget about the player acquisition cost. I could see why the front office would incorrectly believe there would be a cap problem if they failed to properly run a value and utility analysis and decided to sit on their hands instead of patiently engaging in negotiations with players and their agents.

This would lead to a GM avoiding high cost top tier free agents and stock up on over priced bottom tier free agents. The convenience of stock piling money by setting up contracts and forgetting them until their expiration will limit the value a team can get with their money under the cap.

A GM must be an artful and analytical negotiator to be successful in the long run. Talent evaluation is secondary for a GM, and should be delegated by a GM to front office personnel so that GM can maximize the value of their time with budgeting, forecasting, and value based analytics related to the product on the field (money value of a players performance) and their clients (a proactive forward thinking rapport with agents). The GM should be surrounded by a team they assembled of front office personnel they trust to be more intelligent than they are at the talent evaluation process.

Simply stating there is a salary cap problem because the two numbers on a piece of paper do not add up is a mistake. A person must understand the function behind the salary cap and all the interacting elements of its function - the personal, the analytical, and the psychological. A person can always change the numbers while maintaining the same if not greater value.

[Ricky Spanish]

9 minutes ago, CPantherKing said:

I avoid salary cap conversations due the complex economics of the salary cap coupled with the myth/excuse of being in cap hell. Since I am being engaged with this myth, I will respond to it in length just this one time.

The Panthers saved $300k in 2014 cap space by cutting Smith and signing Cotchery. Steve Smith would have cost the team $7m. Cotchery's acquisition cost was $6.7m. Cotchery's acquisition cost in 2015 was $6m. Now we all know Cotchery is not worth $6 to 7m per season. What kind of cap problems do you have when you can burn money on Cotchery? There are no cap problems.

We know about the 13m wasted on Hardy.

Mitchell cost $2.2m in 2014. Captain cost $3.3m. LaFell cost $2m. Ginn cost $2.3m. Total = $9.8m

The Panthers carried over $5m in cap space to 2015.

Then they spent another $5m in cap space on Roman Harper, Thomas DeCoud, Antoine Cason, and Jason Avant.

Jordan Gross planned on playing in 2014 with his buddies, but retired earlier when Steve Smith and Travelle Wharton were removed from the Panthers plans.

If the Panthers chose to keep Steve Smith, Brandon LaFell, Ted Ginn Jr, Mike Mitchell, Charles Godfrey, Captain Munnerlyn, and Jordan Gross 

...and...

opted not to acquire Jerricho Cotchery, Jason Avant, Brenton Bersin, Roman Harper, Thomas DeCoud, Antonie Cason, and Nate Chandler/Mike Remmers

... then they spend $2.5m more, and are still $2.5m under the cap.

Now, I ask you, would you pay $2.5m more to trade out the above mentioned players for the 2014 team? Or was the salary cap so strapped that the Panthers could not have found $2.5m?

The Panthers could have done the above and still decided to spend the wasted $13m on Julius Peppers and Jared Allen from 2014 to 2016. Then cut one of the 3 DEs after 2015 when you are ready to sign Norman. The books would be clear for KK and Star by 2017 with hopefully young DEs stepping in after 2 to 3 seasons behind Peppers, Allen, and CJ.

So, your 2014-2016 defense would look like this: Peppers, Star, KK, Allen/CJ, Shaq/Klein, Kuechly, TD, Norman, Coleman/Godfrey (FS), Mitchell, Tillman, Captain, and Bene.

The offense would look like this from 2014-2016: Cam, Stewart, Tolbert, Smith, KB, LaFell, Ginn, Funchess, Brown, Olsen, Barnidge, Veldheer, Norwell, Kalil, Turner and Gross/Seantrel Henderson/La'el Collins/Daryl Williams.

Money clears off the books for Peppers, Allen, CJ, TD, Tillman, Godfrey, Captain, Stewart, Tolbert, Smith, LaFell, Ginn, Kalil, and Gross between 2016-2018.

This could have been done with some intellect and hustle. Now, the question: why was it not done?

I believe Godfrey is an acceptable diminishing return for 2014 to get more value out of the roster, but he is out come 2015 for Coleman if he were unable to improve.

From 2013-2016 you now have a team without any major holes and is now an incubator for rookies. A team that is primed for a consistent 4 year run at the top of the NFL.

The numbers work. There was no cap problem in 2014. People forget about the player acquisition cost. I could see why the front office would incorrectly believe there would be a cap problem if they failed to properly run a value and utility analysis and decided to sit on their hands instead of patiently engaging in negotiations with players and their agents.

This would lead to a GM avoiding high cost top tier free agents and stock up on over priced bottom tier free agents. The convenience of stock piling money by setting up contracts and forgetting them until their expiration will limit the value a team can get with their money under the cap.

A GM must be an artful and analytical negotiator to be successful in the long run. Talent evaluation is secondary for a GM, and should be delegated by a GM to front office personnel so that GM can maximize the value of their time with budgeting, forecasting, and value based analytics related to the product on the field (money value of a players performance) and their clients (a proactive forward thinking rapport with agents). The GM should be surrounded by a team they assembled of front office personnel they trust to be more intelligent than they are at the talent evaluation process.

Simply stating there is a salary cap problem because the two numbers on a piece of paper do not add up is a mistake. A person must understand the function behind the salary cap and all the interacting elements of its function - the personal, the analytical, and the psychological. A person can always change the numbers while maintaining the same if not greater value.

This is the first time you have ever backed up your claims about the salary cap not mattering, so I have pied you. 

However it is filled with hindsight bias and hypotheticals that I personally don't believe are reasonable or realistic. 

[MechaZain]

5 minutes ago, CPantherKing said:

This could have been done with some intellect and hustle. Now, the question: why was it not done?

Well we know cutting Smith wasn't about money. Neither was Bene. Difficult to look at this through a strictly financial lens when Gettleman himself doesn't.

[AU-panther]

11 minutes ago, CPantherKing said:

I avoid salary cap conversations due the complex economics of the salary cap coupled with the myth/excuse of being in cap hell. Since I am being engaged with this myth, I will respond to it in length just this one time.

The Panthers saved $300k in 2014 cap space by cutting Smith and signing Cotchery. Steve Smith would have cost the team $7m. Cotchery's acquisition cost was $6.7m. Cotchery's acquisition cost in 2015 was $6m. Now we all know Cotchery is not worth $6 to 7m per season. What kind of cap problems do you have when you can burn money on Cotchery? There are no cap problems.

We know about the 13m wasted on Hardy.

Mitchell cost $2.2m in 2014. Captain cost $3.3m. LaFell cost $2m. Ginn cost $2.3m. Total = $9.8m

The Panthers carried over $5m in cap space to 2015.

Then they spent another $5m in cap space on Roman Harper, Thomas DeCoud, Antoine Cason, and Jason Avant.

Jordan Gross planned on playing in 2014 with his buddies, but retired earlier when Steve Smith and Travelle Wharton were removed from the Panthers plans.

If the Panthers chose to keep Steve Smith, Brandon LaFell, Ted Ginn Jr, Mike Mitchell, Charles Godfrey, Captain Munnerlyn, and Jordan Gross 

...and...

opted not to acquire Jerricho Cotchery, Jason Avant, Brenton Bersin, Roman Harper, Thomas DeCoud, Antonie Cason, and Nate Chandler/Mike Remmers

... then they spend $2.5m more, and are still $2.5m under the cap.

Now, I ask you, would you pay $2.5m more to trade out the above mentioned players for the 2014 team? Or was the salary cap so strapped that the Panthers could not have found $2.5m?

The Panthers could have done the above and still decided to spend the wasted $13m on Julius Peppers and Jared Allen from 2014 to 2016. Then cut one of the 3 DEs after 2015 when you are ready to sign Norman. The books would be clear for KK and Star by 2017 with hopefully young DEs stepping in after 2 to 3 seasons behind Peppers, Allen, and CJ.

So, your 2014-2016 defense would look like this: Peppers, Star, KK, Allen/CJ, Shaq/Klein, Kuechly, TD, Norman, Coleman/Godfrey (FS), Mitchell, Tillman, Captain, and Bene.

The offense would look like this from 2014-2016: Cam, Stewart, Tolbert, Smith, KB, LaFell, Ginn, Funchess, Brown, Olsen, Barnidge, Veldheer, Norwell, Kalil, Turner and Gross/Seantrel Henderson/La'el Collins/Daryl Williams.

Money clears off the books for Peppers, Allen, CJ, TD, Tillman, Godfrey, Captain, Stewart, Tolbert, Smith, LaFell, Ginn, Kalil, and Gross between 2016-2018.

This could have been done with some intellect and hustle. Now, the question: why was it not done?

I believe Godfrey is an acceptable diminishing return for 2014 to get more value out of the roster, but he is out come 2015 for Coleman if he were unable to improve.

From 2013-2016 you now have a team without any major holes and is now an incubator for rookies. A team that is primed for a consistent 4 year run at the top of the NFL.

The numbers work. There was no cap problem in 2014. People forget about the player acquisition cost. I could see why the front office would incorrectly believe there would be a cap problem if they failed to properly run a value and utility analysis and decided to sit on their hands instead of patiently engaging in negotiations with players and their agents.

This would lead to a GM avoiding high cost top tier free agents and stock up on over priced bottom tier free agents. The convenience of stock piling money by setting up contracts and forgetting them until their expiration will limit the value a team can get with their money under the cap.

A GM must be an artful and analytical negotiator to be successful in the long run. Talent evaluation is secondary for a GM, and should be delegated by a GM to front office personnel so that GM can maximize the value of their time with budgeting, forecasting, and value based analytics related to the product on the field (money value of a players performance) and their clients (a proactive forward thinking rapport with agents). The GM should be surrounded by a team they assembled of front office personnel they trust to be more intelligent than they are at the talent evaluation process.

Simply stating there is a salary cap problem because the two numbers on a piece of paper do not add up is a mistake. A person must understand the function behind the salary cap and all the interacting elements of its function - the personal, the analytical, and the psychological. A person can always change the numbers while maintaining the same if not greater value.

I'm not going to go thru the entire post but your numbers are off.  Actually they are off a lot.

Cotchery's total cap cost for his 2 years of service was $5m.  That $5m was actually spread out over 3years.

2014 - $1.7m

2015 - $1.95m

2016 - $1.35m

http://overthecap.com/player/jerricho-cotchery/1606/

 

[CPantherKing]

6 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

I'm not going to go thru the entire post but your numbers are off.  Actually they are off a lot.

Cotchery's total cap cost for his 2 years of service was $5m.  That $5m was actually spread out over 3years.

2014 - $1.7m

2015 - $1.95m

2016 - $1.35m

http://overthecap.com/player/jerricho-cotchery/1606/

 

The numbers are correct.

You need to look deeper into the relationship of transactions on a roster. Looking at them as individual events and costs will greatly skew their actual value/impact to a team. I refer to it as a player acquisition cost.

[jptaylor84]

Gettleman is no John Schneider? Rational enough


Sent from my iPhone using CarolinaHuddle

[KB_fan]

On 10/17/2016 at 1:39 PM, Cracka McNasty said:

We are good Cap wise. It's not like we're the Saints and have mortgaged our future to be this bad. All the mistakes that Gettleman has made are not long term mistakes.

Excellent point about nor mortgaging our future.  That very definitely is a positive.

I do have one growing concern about a possible long-term mistake that Gettleman is making, however, and that's the continued very very low (league lowest?) number of draft picks.  I think that may be catching up to us this year.

I'm quite concerned that we have virtually no obvious promising talent that we're developing as potential starters with maybe the exception of Butler and *perhaps* Daryl Williams. (who may improve with the starting experience he's getting right now?  Perhaps he will eventually be an upgrade to Remmers?!? (that's a pretty low bar!)

We have some good young talent (Shaq, KB, Funch, obviously Trai, Norwell...) but for the most part, all our young talent is already playing.   I don't see anyone in line behind them, especially on either line.   Drafting 3 CBs really handicapped us now in terms of roster development at other positions.  Usually we score some good talent in the UDFA pool, and maybe we did so again with Jeremy Cash... but we need talent to develop on Oline, Dline, Safety, TE.  

As Gettleman reminds us, there's no instant oatmeal and it takes 2-3 years to develop players to a good level.  Who are those guys we're grooming?  Tre is not playing well.  Kony is not playing well.  We let Bene go.  Daryl Williams looks so-so.  CAP is serviceable but probably not a Stew-replacement long-term....  Cox and Miley both gone.  Delaire looked awful before he was injured.

Up until now I've been wowed by DG's drafts and the "bang for the buck" - few drafted players but lots of talent.   Now it all seems to be going up in smoke rather quickly and our recent strategy of drafting fewer players to go after guys we really liked looks like it could start to bite us.

 

[KB_fan]

On 10/17/2016 at 2:23 PM, GoobyPls said:

Cam taking this team to 15-1 was a curse in disguise 

NEVER.

It was an amazing ride, one that most fanbases would die for.  So exciting.  Such a shame we didn't win the SB.  It seemed like it was our time...  

Even if last season set us up for the super bowl curse, some complacency and some bad decisions by our front office and coaches, I'll still take it.  It was a great gift and I'll always be glad to have been one of the fans cheering wildly for the team every moment of last season.

[AU-panther]

On ‎10‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 0:32 PM, CPantherKing said:

The numbers are correct.

You need to look deeper into the relationship of transactions on a roster. Looking at them as individual events and costs will greatly skew their actual value/impact to a team. I refer to it as a player acquisition cost.

"Player acquisition cost" ?  you mean you took Smith's dead cap and added to Cotchery's cap cost.  You are correct that the savings were not that great that first year Smith was gone but you should look at the following two years.

The fact is DG inherited a team that was way over the cap and coming off of 3 straight losing seasons.  Being over the cap wasn't a myth. 

The are only a few ways to reduce a teams overall cap. 

You can cut players with large salaries.  Cutting a player making 500k doesn't save you anything because you have to replace that player.  Also if a player has too much dead money on the books cutting them can actually cost you cap space.  DG was limited on who he could cut because a lot of the players had contracts that were really back loaded.

You can restructure a player with a large base salary.  In that case you take a player with say an $10m base salary for that year and you convert it to a bonus which lets you prorate it.  So in theory a $10m cap cost would change to $2m if you prorate over 5 years. He actually did a good bit of this.  He even used voidable years on some of the contracts to help further reduce overall cap numbers.

You can ask a player to take a pay cut, which very rarely happens.  More times then not when you hear about a player restructuring to save a team some cap space they are in reality just doing what I was referring to earlier.  Which is converting salary to a bonus and receiving the money upfront.  The player actually comes out ahead in this situation and the team just moves the cap charge to future years.  The best way to think about a pay cut is you cut the player and resign them at a lower amount.

I'm not saying DG is perfect, there are actually several things I wish he would have done different but the fact is he inherited a salary cap mess.