Article (Bill Voth): Who Saw This Coming? Pretty Much Everyone

[Proudiddy]

Just now, Benotheking said:

You know your making the case for me see we are 1 and 5 because Ron is not good and the seahawks are because pete is a winner. You can't really believe that masking an O line is easier then masking a secondary. Its proven in NFL that a great front 7 mask a secondary but no matter if you throw quick passes you still can get a ton of pressure on the QB I.E New England vs Denver.

Oh, is that why Belichick has traded away more lineman than most teams draft over the last decade?  

And how is that front seven of ours looking without competent DBs behind them?  LOL.  Stop.

I'll let you argue with yourself now.

[Cpt slay a ho]

It's on the GM simple as that,any thing else is and excuse to save face for DG. No way can you fault Ron when time after time he's proven with even the most basic tools(some talent on the line, some talent in the secondary) he can field a top 10 defense. Jesus himself couldn't make this defense we have today good. Quit with the Shula bs too, when we start losing games because of play calling and the offense not putting up enough points then we can get to that subject 

[panthers55]

So when I said in the offseason that Gettleman tried to play tough guy and show Norman that he isnt going to let an agent or player dictate to him and it was going to bite us in the ass, folks here acted like I was crazy.  When I told folks here that we needed to bring in some vets to replace Norman everyone acted as if the front four would be great and would cover up any mistakes.  Plus we needed that money to sign KK and all the vets resignings.  I said we could sign Norman and KK and still fit under the cap and we surely could have.  We didnt use Norman's money to sign KK and will likely play hard ball and lose him as well.  We currently have 19 million in cap space which is unused and we are projected to have 33 million next year even if the cap doesnt go up. When you add what we will carry over, we could have close to 50 million in cap space to spend.  The only silver lining might be that if we are terrible this year it might make Gettleman rethink this tough guy just replace all the expensive vets with rookies and JAGS idea.  Maybe he will figure out what I have said which is you cant just interchange player pieces like this was Legos or Madden and expect to not suffer the consequences.  I hate that we are so bad, but sometimes is has to be broken in order for people to understand it needs to be fixed.

[Benotheking]

15 minutes ago, CPantherKing said:

Gettleman is great at evaluating talent. The part he has trouble with is valuing every minute a player is on the field and interpreting it to $. I also do not think he is a great team builder. He is excellent at farming talent. Unfortunately, farming talent means you have to be very patient for the Antonio Browns to grow out of the dirt.

With the new CBA and free agency, you must stock the top 10 to 12 roster spots with the best talent in the league. If you have not grown it yet, then you can not be patient with these spots when the team is peaking.

If that CBA changes dramatically in 2020, then Gettleman will have run out of time and have to learn a new system. Younger GMs and older pro personnel directors is the way to go imo.

It is more like the stock market. You can farm your stock picks, but the high frequency trading is going to beat you every time. If you are on the rise and you miss your window, you will be waiting even longer for that window to come back around.

Gettleman is not a stock market kind of guy. He is a money in the mattress garage sale picking kind of guy. Keep moving and that gem will pop up someday.

2004 saw Steve Smith and Stephen Davis going down to start the season. That offense was built around Steve Smith and the running game. Then the defense saw the secondary gutted of vet CBs and a system safety. To top it off, the heart of the DL was lost early in Kris Jenkins.

Imagine 2016, with Cam Newton gone for the season in week 1. Jonathan Stewart out for the season after week 2. The secondary being overhauled with youth and one vet safety (we know that one). KK Short lost for the season in week 4. Luke Kuechly and Thomas Davis lost for 4 games of the season. You think it is bad now in 2016? 2004 was overrun with misfortune. If that type of poo storm hit a team, you can not blame the HC or GM. The secondary, while not great, held up well in 2004. It was all the injuries to key players that destroyed that season. That has not happened in 2016. It is clearly all the overlooked personnel areas that are hurting this team.

It was not just Norman the team was franchising. It was Norman and Coleman that worked together. Tillman was an easy fit, but Norman was the heart of the secondary. As long as you keep Norman and Coleman together with Coleman at FS, the secondary would have been strong. Boston also worked well with Norman. Without Norman Coleman and Boston are not as good.

Now, it is a complete mess. We have to wait for Coleman or Boston to gel with one of the rookies, and that rookie must be able to compete at an all pro level.

 

Agreed that Josh was the heart of the secondary but not the heart of the team.we do miss josh any and everyone would admit to that but that's not why we are 1 and 5  our secondary held Denver Minnesota and Tampa under 230 passing yards and under 23 points but we couldn't win does games and the point can be made that that was due to lack of adjustment play calling and game management. Also lack of motivation.

[Proudiddy]

28 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

So when I said in the offseason that Gettleman tried to play tough guy and show Norman that he isnt going to let an agent or player dictate to him and it was going to bite us in the ass, folks here acted like I was crazy.  When I told folks here that we needed to bring in some vets to replace Norman everyone acted as if the front four would be great and would cover up any mistakes.  Plus we needed that money to sign KK and all the vets resignings.  I said we could sign Norman and KK and still fit under the cap and we surely could have.  We didnt use Norman's money to sign KK and will likely play hard ball and lose him as well.  We currently have 19 million in cap space which is unused and we are projected to have 33 million next year even if the cap doesnt go up. When you add what we will carry over, we could have close to 50 million in cap space to spend.  The only silver lining might be that if we are terrible this year it might make Gettleman rethink this tough guy just replace all the expensive vets with rookies and JAGS idea.  Maybe he will figure out what I have said which is you cant just interchange player pieces like this was Legos or Madden and expect to not suffer the consequences.  I hate that we are so bad, but sometimes is has to be broken in order for people to understand it needs to be fixed.

For those of us that have been in this camp since it happened, I just dont understand how any fan at least somewhat familiar with the game itself dismissed the concerns with that "front seven made him" argument.  They play off each other.  To think anyone actually, REALLY thought we could herd up some bums off the street and the front seven would make them into Josh Norman, or hell, even the likes of Reggie Howard and Terry Cousins, is beyond me.  

[CPantherKing]

8 minutes ago, Benotheking said:

Agreed that Josh was the heart of the secondary but not the heart of the team.we do miss josh any and everyone would admit to that but that's not why we are 1 and 5  our secondary held Denver Minnesota and Tampa under 230 passing yards and under 23 points but we couldn't win does games and the point can be made that that was due to lack of adjustment play calling and game management. Also lack of motivation.

The secondary allowed the Broncos to score in the 4th quarter by failing to communicate and tackle on several big plays which led to hesitation and lack of rotation to the play side. The secondary was directly responsible for 14 of the Broncos points. The secondary was also responsible for allowing Bradford to move down the field while passing in chunk yardage to start the 2nd half and in the 4th quarter. The secondary is also responsible for allowing the Bucs to march down the field and eat up clock while posting 11 points in the 2nd half. Evans and Vincent had their way with the secondary and the only time a pass was contested resulted in a dropped INT by Coleman.

That secondary is a mess and their communication is horrible. Opponents are going to keep setting records against them. I feel bad the front office would waste at least a year of the players' careers over another failed project.

[top dawg]

2 hours ago, jfo89 said:

 

Lol at least you can admit it. You blend right in with this instant gratification society.

15-1 to Lord knows what, in a year where everyone thought you would and should be a major player is unacceptable. Gettleman has been here long enough to implement pieces that he put in place to sustain success. That's what excellent GMs do. He has had enough time, so there is nothing really "instant" about  what he has done. You act as though Panthers fans haven't been patient enough with Gettleman. The guy has had years to address the O-line, the DE situation, and the lack of absolute talent at safety, and what does he do? Keeps stacking the positions of DT and LB. Moreover, he basically gutted the defensive backfield, ostensibly filling it to his "liking" after unceremoniously jettisoning experienced vets on their way. He followed that up by reaching for CBs in the draft, where he didn't even stick to his own philosophy.

Letting J-No walk was odd, and then drafting three CBs was even more odd, particularly when you have question marks at other positions. This whole thing was his making. Moreover, I really don't care for dealing draft picks for anything other than rock-solid talent. Acquiring rock-solid talent when giving away picks shouldn't be so difficult for a guy that toots his own horn as a master talent evaluator.

Knowing this team and the talent that we have, we should not be 1-5 coming from 15-1. The main reason that we are falls squarely at Gettleman's feet. Rivera and McDermott, still highly respected in NFL circles, particularly as it pertains to defense, have a pretty good track record. Gettleman's reputation and history as a GM is one giant question mark. His management and team building philosophy is still in doubt.

[Benotheking]

24 minutes ago, CPantherKing said:

The secondary allowed the Broncos to score in the 4th quarter by failing to communicate and tackle on several big plays which led to hesitation and lack of rotation to the play side. The secondary was directly responsible for 14 of the Broncos points. The secondary was also responsible for allowing Bradford to move down the field while passing in chunk yardage to start the 2nd half and in the 4th quarter. The secondary is also responsible for allowing the Bucs to march down the field and eat up clock while posting 11 points in the 2nd half. Evans and Vincent had their way with the secondary and the only time a pass was contested resulted in a dropped INT by Coleman.

That secondary is a mess and their communication is horrible. Opponents are going to keep setting records against them. I feel bad the front office would waste at least a year of the players' careers over another failed project.

See what about last year when the secondary allowed teams like Green bay Colts Giants Seahawks to come back in the 4th and make it a game what is the excuses for that?  This is nothing new under Ron go back to his 1st year we had a big lead on many teams just to see them win or make it a game. Also lack of communication falls all on the coaches and it's not only the lack of communication in the secondary its the whole defense.

[Benotheking]

1 hour ago, Proudiddy said:

Oh, is that why Belichick has traded away more lineman than most teams draft over the last decade?  

And how is that front seven of ours looking without competent DBs behind them?  LOL.  Stop.

I'll let you argue with yourself now.

Yes you are right I'm arguing with myself because you are wrong. How did that work out for New England last year against Denver? How did that work out for us last year against Denver? Again you are making my point for me New England and Seahawks win because they can scheme around thier weaknesses we can't because Ron can't do it constantly. Exactly you see this year our pass rush is a non factor in 2013 we had 60 sack with a bunch of cast off and a starting rookie UDFA CB and won 12 games

[CRA]

2 hours ago, Benotheking said:

 

So having a front 7 full of 1st to 3rd rounders and 2nd and 3rd CB a FS that was consider a pro bowl isn't enough talent ?

Huh? 

No you can't only have legit talent at DT and LB and be weak everywhere else.  Impossible to stop NFL teams.  

Draft position is irrelevant.  We are talking 2016 talent/ability.  

[rippadonn]

Closing deals is part of your job as GM, there is no place for hubris or chest thumping, you don't play the game. If players OR agents start to hate you, you become ineffective instantly and of no use.

[Kakarot]

What sucks the most to me is we were so close to having an overall winning record as a franchise, and we were a shoe in to have back to back winning seasons. Gettleman messed that up, and it won't be until 2019 when we can maybe experience back to back winning seasons, and depending on how we finish, it could be 2 years before we can get the franchise over .500. Who knows with this organization, though. This could be 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012 all over again

[CRA]

1 hour ago, rippadonn said:

Closing deals is part of your job as GM, there is no place for hubris or chest thumping, you don't play the game. If players OR agents start to hate you, you become ineffective instantly and of no use.

Well Gettlemen has had a way to making guys dislike him.  Which is new thing here.  I mean Gross eventually got to the point he could joke about it but we got signs pretty early on.....that could point to some issues Dave has. 

I think it could impact choice FAs coming here.  If Dave is going to try to nickel and dime everyone showing them he is the man...they will take money elsewhere 

[Fox007]

1 minute ago, CRA said:

Well Gettlemen has had a way to making guys dislike him.  Which is new thing here.  I mean Gross eventually got to the point he could joke about it but we got signs pretty early on.....that could point to some issues Dave has. 

I think it could impact choice FAs coming here.  If Dave is going to try to nickel and dime everyone showing them he is the man...they will take money elsewhere 

Yea Gross is another piece we'd love to have these days taht gets lost in our new wave of players.

This SB team with a franchise LT like Gross...man we miss him as much or more than anyone to have ever played for the team.