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Same story DE and OT..

DelhommesTheMan

By DelhommesTheMan,
in Carolina Panthers

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thefuzz Mentor

thefuzz

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8 pages bitching about the OT's and DE's and not 1 viable alternative was mentioned.

Do you think this may be the reason that those positions weren't upgraded?

 

There is a reason that pass rushers and the men meant to slow down pass rushers are some of the highest paid in the NFL....it's because there aren't many good ones.  Out of our 4 starters, Ealy, Johnson, Oher, and Remmers....we have 2 good players, 1 average player, and 1 below average player.

Hate to say it, but it kinda is, what it kinda is.

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DelhommesTheMan Newbie

DelhommesTheMan

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Well it was said that Joe Thomas is rumored to be available.  Is it worth the investment in money and picks to keep our QB upright?  If a punter is worth a 4th i would pay a first rounder for a franchise LT in a heartbeat.  I would probably give up a first and second.  We choose late in round 1 lately, and we are not going to get an opportunity to protect Cam with a top OT prospect.  We also have quite a bit of money.  Gettleman has to bite the bullet.  If i told you you could have Joe Thomas, or Vernon Butler this year i don't think anyone would hesitate in taking the LT.  We have to keep our franchise from taking these hits, it all starts up front.  Let Oher and Remmers fight it out at RT.  If it honestly means letting Star or KK go to pay for a guy like Joe Thomas, as much as it pains me to say, ill take the LT.  

As far as DE.  I was a Hardy guy, thats over.  Hopefully we can get a Jared Allen type deal done with someone, i know Cam Wake gets thrown around, its not a bad idea Miami sucks.  Im sure there are other discussions Gettleman has had, something may come up.  Nobody disgreed that Lavar Edwards looked like our best pass rusher Sunday, and he was two weeks removed from a PS!   Ealy seems to get better as the season goes, its CJ im worried about.  He looks like a shell of himself.  

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thefuzz Mentor

thefuzz

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10 minutes ago, stbugs said:

I agree. Watch the first halves of week 1 and week 3. Pretty even on pressure. Then, the second halves. Every time you see a posting about how bad our tackles are and there is an image or a video, Cam is usually in a deep drop. Usually, when we complain we don't get pressure it is because the opposing team starts throwing to their TEs/RBs.

Sure, I'd love to have another top OT and DE, but on the pressure side, let's actually see what has hurt us:

Week 1: Sanders and DT combine for 94 yards and 0 TDs. RBs combine for almost 200 yards and 3 TDs.

* Side note, Sanders and DT just combined for 200+ yards and 3TDs against a good Cincy D who has 3 1st round CBs.

Week 3: Diggs had 40 yards (285 in weeks 1 and 2), WRs had 77 yards and 0 TDs. TEs had 98 yards and 1 TD.

* Side note, Minnesota only had 211 total yards on offense. Defense was fine, turnovers, penalties costing TDs and special teams cost us the game.

So, maybe the fact that Denver and Minnesota game planned to avoid pressure and used their TEs/RBs as their weapons is why we didn't get 8 sacks like Minnesota. Did you know that against Minnesota, we were even with 2 sacks a piece until we decided to do a deep drop on 2nd and 3 from the Minnesota 36 with 50 seconds/1 timeout left? So, instead of getting a first down/kick a FG, we decided to go for it all. So, until we decided to jump back into our deep drop crap, the DE pressure was even. Once we decided to do the deep passes and Minnesota when TE happy, they out sacked us 6-0. Not always a "talent" issue when it comes to DE pressure. Game planning will do that.

Let's look at the Denver game. Did you know we were up 1 sack to 0 sacks against them until the 3rd quarter? They had 0 sacks until this gem of a drive:

  1. Carolina Panthers at 09:10
  2. 1-10-CAR 11(9:10) 28-J.Stewart up the middle to CAR 18 for 7 yards (48-S.Barrett).
  3. 2-3-CAR 18(8:34) 1-C.Newton pass incomplete deep right to 17-D.Funchess [48-S.Barrett].
  4. 3-3-CAR 18(8:27) (Shotgun) 1-C.Newton sacked at CAR 11 for -7 yards (94-D.Ware).

Hmm, 7 yard run on 1st down, score is 17-7 good guys and we decide to throw it deep twice. Nice Shula. 1st sack of the game for Denver halfway into the 3rd quarter. We are up 2 sacks to 1 until the last two drives with 3 minutes left in the 4th quarter.

So, when I look at the actual stats, I don't think the OTs and DEs have been that much of an issue. Could we get better guys? Sure, but Denver had 3 sacks. All of them on deep drops and 2 of them on the last drive of the game when we were down by 1. Minnesota god 6 of their sacks as soon as we went into deep drop come back mode. The first one before the half was inexcusable play calling that cost us a FG shot before the half (which is what most teams try to get, but not us, we need a TD). The rest were because we played like such poo that instead of potentially being up 23-2 where our DEs could pin their ears back, we let Minnesota do that.

Sorry, I hate these stupid blame the DEs/OTs and DG didn't do enough. They've played well enough to give us what should have been insurmountable leads that we gave away. It continues to throw the blame away from where I think it lies. Special teams, stupid penalties, bad play calling and the fuging refs.

Agreed.  I don't think many on this board look into the situational issues that we are having.  At the moment, the Panthers are beating the Panthers moreso than Denver or Minny did.

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Panther53521 Proficient

Panther53521

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33 minutes ago, stbugs said:

I agree. Watch the first halves of week 1 and week 3. Pretty even on pressure. Then, the second halves. Every time you see a posting about how bad our tackles are and there is an image or a video, Cam is usually in a deep drop. Usually, when we complain we don't get pressure it is because the opposing team starts throwing to their TEs/RBs.

Sure, I'd love to have another top OT and DE, but on the pressure side, let's actually see what has hurt us:

Week 1: Sanders and DT combine for 94 yards and 0 TDs. RBs combine for almost 200 yards and 3 TDs.

* Side note, Sanders and DT just combined for 200+ yards and 3TDs against a good Cincy D who has 3 1st round CBs.

Week 3: Diggs had 40 yards (285 in weeks 1 and 2), WRs had 77 yards and 0 TDs. TEs had 98 yards and 1 TD.

* Side note, Minnesota only had 211 total yards on offense. Defense was fine, turnovers, penalties costing TDs and special teams cost us the game.

So, maybe the fact that Denver and Minnesota game planned to avoid pressure and used their TEs/RBs as their weapons is why we didn't get 8 sacks like Minnesota. Did you know that against Minnesota, we were even with 2 sacks a piece until we decided to do a deep drop on 2nd and 3 from the Minnesota 36 with 50 seconds/1 timeout left? So, instead of getting a first down/kick a FG, we decided to go for it all. So, until we decided to jump back into our deep drop crap, the DE pressure was even. Once we decided to do the deep passes and Minnesota when TE happy, they out sacked us 6-0. Not always a "talent" issue when it comes to DE pressure. Game planning will do that.

Let's look at the Denver game. Did you know we were up 1 sack to 0 sacks against them until the 3rd quarter? They had 0 sacks until this gem of a drive:

  1. Carolina Panthers at 09:10
  2. 1-10-CAR 11(9:10) 28-J.Stewart up the middle to CAR 18 for 7 yards (48-S.Barrett).
  3. 2-3-CAR 18(8:34) 1-C.Newton pass incomplete deep right to 17-D.Funchess [48-S.Barrett].
  4. 3-3-CAR 18(8:27) (Shotgun) 1-C.Newton sacked at CAR 11 for -7 yards (94-D.Ware).

Hmm, 7 yard run on 1st down, score is 17-7 good guys and we decide to throw it deep twice. Nice Shula. 1st sack of the game for Denver halfway into the 3rd quarter. We are up 2 sacks to 1 until the last two drives with 3 minutes left in the 4th quarter.

So, when I look at the actual stats, I don't think the OTs and DEs have been that much of an issue. Could we get better guys? Sure, but Denver had 3 sacks. All of them on deep drops and 2 of them on the last drive of the game when we were down by 1. Minnesota god 6 of their sacks as soon as we went into deep drop come back mode. The first one before the half was inexcusable play calling that cost us a FG shot before the half (which is what most teams try to get, but not us, we need a TD). The rest were because we played like such poo that instead of potentially being up 23-2 where our DEs could pin their ears back, we let Minnesota do that.

Sorry, I hate these stupid blame the DEs/OTs and DG didn't do enough. They've played well enough to give us what should have been insurmountable leads that we gave away. It continues to throw the blame away from where I think it lies. Special teams, stupid penalties, bad play calling and the fuging refs.

I completely agree with you, but we are really weak against the speed rush and need help for those games that we need a comeback to win.

Most of the sacks given up are during known pass plays.

But I am more on the play calling .... we ran a screen with great production in the first half --- Then we totally forget that play for the rest of the game. 3rd and 5 we dont need to send EVERYONE on 20 yd routes.

I have already cursed Shula more time than I did all of last year. Not sure if Shula has got the Big head from last year and Cam saving him every game (Teams are looking for that this year, so its not gonna work as well). Where are the slants and quick hitters to use against good defenses?

Once we get a big lead the pass rush will be just fine LOL. The Defense is playing good enough to win. We have to many points from ST and short field turnovers. MInn 2nd half drive was the first full field TD we have had against us (I believe).

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Craig Pruitt Newbie

Craig Pruitt

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1 hour ago, thefuzz said:

8 pages bitching about the OT's and DE's and not 1 viable alternative was mentioned.

Do you think this may be the reason that those positions weren't upgraded?

 

There is a reason that pass rushers and the men meant to slow down pass rushers are some of the highest paid in the NFL....it's because there aren't many good ones.  Out of our 4 starters, Ealy, Johnson, Oher, and Remmers....we have 2 good players, 1 average player, and 1 below average player.

Hate to say it, but it kinda is, what it kinda is.

You're right about the difficulty teams face when trying to find DE's and DT's in a 4-3 defense. I think the below quote sums up the dilemma facing teams who choose to run that scheme.   

According to NFL coach Wade Phillips, 3–4 linebackers "are a little bit cheaper, and you can find more of them," while "it's harder to find defensive linemen to play a 4–3 and pay for all of them."

 

 

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Nick_81 Newbie

Nick_81

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3 minutes ago, Craig Pruitt said:

You're right about the difficulty teams face when trying to find DE's and DT's in a 4-3 defense. I think the below quote sums up the dilemma facing teams who choose to run that scheme.   

According to NFL coach Wade Phillips, 3–4 linebackers "are a little bit cheaper, and you can find more of them," while "it's harder to find defensive linemen to play a 4–3 and pay for all of them."

 

 

Maybe Phillips forgot they just gave a 3-4 LB, a $114,500,000 contract...

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