Players that helped/hurt themselves (Game 2)

[Mr. Scot]

12 hours ago, GoobyPls said:

I thought wrong.

That happens pretty frequently.

[GoobyPls]

2 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Really? You ignoring the playoff games again? We held the #1 and #3 scoring offenses besides us to 7 first half points in 2 games and only 39 overall even in complete catch up mode. The defense also only gave up 194 yards in the Super Bowl.

Sorry, but the D played very well with Charles Johnson on the field in the playoffs, when he was healthy. Would you rather not have a DE that has 3 sacks and 2 forced fumbles in 3 playoff games? Only one Von Miller, but Charles Johnson was a great DE in the playoffs, period.

So your ignoring the whole season? And stop that "when he was healthy" that's an excuse for bad play when reality no one is healthy all season.

 

And your taking sacks at face value, Johnson failed to put constant pressure on QBs. There was even a thread made last season showing how our pass rush got better with him out. But yeah let's ignore facts cause you like him.

[CRA]

6 hours ago, ctrcat said:

In 2013 the constant narrative was that we could get pressure with 4 and how obviously awesome that was.  

In 2015 the constant narrative was that we would simply take the ball away from anyone and everyone....and how awesome that was.

 

[GoobyPls]

49 minutes ago, stbugs said:

LOL, when he was healthy is the actual case. He got hurt in week 3. He had 1 sack in his two healthy games. He then missed 8 weeks, yep 8 weeks, i.e. half a season. Did you expect him to come out on fire in week 12? I'll admit that he didn't play that great when he first came back, but when he was finally back healthy, he played very well in the playoffs.

If you can't see how a player is not healthy all season is different from someone who got hurt in week 3 and didn't play for 8 weeks then you are just ignoring the facts.

Also, what pass rush without him? Addison had 6 sacks in 2015, Ealy had 5, Delaire had 2.5, Allen had 2 and Horton had 1. Non-CJ DE's had a total of 16.5 sacks, 11 from guys who weren't replacements for CJ. DTs, LBers and DBs had 26.5 and this isn't a 3-4 D. The DEs in the 4-3 are supposed to bring the pressure. If you are trying to credit the pressure from the non-DEs to the guys who replaced Johnson, you are using stats to paint an incorrect picture.

He played 9 games had 1 sack all season. LMAO  He was healthy in most of them, but yeah he was "hurt" so that lets him off the hook.

 

In those playoff games we had huge leads and those teams had to throw the ball so it was obvious the linemen had to pin their ears back and rush the passer. And like I said sack doesnt equal good pass rush. Johnson is slow and gets pushed around easily.

 

 

Its funny when he got released, everyone was praising the it as the right move, but now that he's back on the team they are making excuses for his bad play.

[GoobyPls]

9 hours ago, stbugs said:

Ok. He sucks, you are right. 3 sacks and 2 forced fumbles in three playoff games sucks. I'm pretty sure a sack is the definition of a good QB pressure but you are somewhere else.

I'm glad you can check the stats. He had 1 in 2 games before he got hurt in game 3. No one ever said he played well weeks 12-17, but you are being ridiculous in thinking that after an 8 week layoff (9 weeks calendar time) he's going to come out of the gate smoking. He was really hurt and it took him a long time to get back in the groove and he balled in the playoffs. Stop trying to act like a 2 month layoff isn't a serious injury.

By the way, his sack against Seattle was in the third quarter. His strip sack (which we recovered) against Arizona was in the 2nd quarter and the sack (strip but they recovers) against Denver was in the 4th when we were losing. So, your statement that teams had to throw against us because they were so far behind and had to throw was wrong in 2 games and only sort of true in the Seattle game. Even then it was still the 3rd quarter and Seattle was only down 16 and not desperation time.

Also, are you really trying to say we released him due to performance and not the $15M cap hit he had in 2016? The Giants were going to sign him, but he came back at a discount because he wanted to be here and he already got paid a huge deal by Hurney so he wasn't hurting. Also, if he was done, why did we resign him and why is he starting?

How can we make excuses when he hasn't played a real down yet? You are trying to paint it like he sucked all year, his injury was a hangnail, the playoffs never happened, sacks aren't QB pressures and he was released not due to a $15M cap number.


Sent from my iPhone using CarolinaHuddle

Sacks don't equate to constant pressure. You can have a coverage sack or a sack in which the QB is avoiding another rusher and steps into a sack. You know who also had sacks in the playoffs Kyle Love and Duwan Edwards. And yes both Seattle and Arizona where in desperation mode.

 

And you keep bringing up the injury when guys like Luke, Stewart, Philly ext... missed games came back and didn't miss a beat. And how do you know he won't get injured next season? since you're putting such an emphasis on that.

 

Its not just last  season, in 2014 he had 8 sacks in 16 games. That's 9 sacks in his 25 games, that's the epitome of mediocrity.

 

The fact is Johnson isn't really starting material and has displayed it the last two seasons. 

 

Oh and here's the thread most people seem to not care he got realesed, money aside his performance was underwhelming 

http://www.carolinahuddle.com/boards/topic/126231-breaking-charles-johnson-released/?page=8

 

[rippadonn]

15 hours ago, stbugs said:

 

Also, what pass rush without him? Addison had 6 sacks in 2015, Ealy had 5, Delaire had 2.5, Allen had 2 and Horton had 1. Non-CJ DE's had a total of 16.5 sacks, 11 from guys who weren't replacements for CJ. DTs, LBers and DBs had 26.5 and this isn't a 3-4 D. The DEs in the 4-3 are supposed to bring the pressure. If you are trying to credit the pressure from the non-DEs to the guys who replaced Johnson, you are using stats to paint an incorrect picture.

Good points. Very telling. 

[rippadonn]

The electric blue elephant in the room was a very big loss to the franchise because top talent at the position along with some of the best coaches in the biz doesn't come often. Had the electric blue elephant been stashed on the roster until the Ray Rice fire got put out the future at DE might still have been stellar.

Some people are upset because the electric blue elephant liked to have fun and probably didn't own a pair of khakis. Fun seeking elephants that don't walk in a straight line really piss them off! "Don't celebrate!!!" They often say, and "Tuck your shirt in!" 

 Charles Johnson wouldn't have to be an All Pro or 10 sack guy and wouldn't be a focal point. The electric blue elephant, Ealy, Johnson, Addison, and guys would be pretty damn good. Somebody goes down and your not calling up Jared Allen off his couch. 

 

[ctrcat]

18 minutes ago, rippadonn said:

The electric blue elephant in the room was a very big loss to the franchise because top talent at the position along with some of the best coaches in the biz doesn't come often. Had the electric blue elephant been stashed on the roster until the Ray Rice fire got put out the future at DE might still have been stellar.

Some people are upset because the electric blue elephant liked to have fun and probably didn't own a pair of khakis. Fun seeking elephants that don't walk in a straight line really piss them off! "Don't celebrate!!!" They often say, and "Tuck your shirt in!" 

 Charles Johnson wouldn't have to be an All Pro or 10 sack guy and wouldn't be a focal point. The electric blue elephant, Ealy, Johnson, Addison, and guys would be pretty damn good. Somebody goes down and your not calling up Jared Allen off his couch. 

 

Don't get your hopes up, but just throwing this out there.  With no Tom to rag doll this week and Trevor Siemian now likely on the docket in week 1, 10 days before a week 2 home game in a far less visible TV slot/opponent, and a vested vet with 4+ years signing after week 1 enabling a "non"guaranteed deal (guaranteed before week 1) with greater roster flexibility...just saying.

[rippadonn]

7 minutes ago, ctrcat said:

Don't get your hopes up, but just throwing this out there.  With Trevor Siemian now likely on the docket, 10 days before a week 2 home game in a far less visible TV slot/opponent, and a vested vet with 4+ years signing after week 1 enabling a "non"guaranteed deal (guaranteed before week 1) with greater roster flexibility...just saying.

Yeah, the options will be getting slim very soon.

Other people need elephants too

[GoobyPls]

20 hours ago, stbugs said:

We'll just agree to disagree. I am not saying he's a monster, just that you can't look at weeks 12-17 and act like he was truly healthy. He isn't Luke, but do you not see a difference between a 2 month injury and missing a couple games? Stewart is a good mention as he's had 2 years where he missed more than 3 games (missed 7 and 9) and in those two years he had his worst ypc in his career almost 1 ypc below his other years. ACL injuries have improved, but that was always a good example where players with big injuries aren't 100% right away. When you are out for a couple games, you are still going to be in game shape. When your injury is bad enough to be placed on the 8 week IR, you aren't going to come out of the gate strong, especially when you are 29. I'm not making excuses, he got hurt and didn't recover very fast, but he isn't done.

I thought CJ played very well in the playoffs. Ealy showed up in the SB, but CJ was the only DE who had a sack in the first two playoff games. Only Short also had sacks in multiple playoff games (2), but I guess he got his sacks because of CJ's pressure so they don't count either.

That thread doesn't matter to me. I know this place now and 90% will back any DG decision, but if you followed the release, you know that it was 100% about the money, which is why he is back now. Everyone was OK with it, because there is no way you can pay CJ at 29, coming off his worst season, $15M. CJ averaged 15 games played per year the previous 7, so this was the first year in his career that he had a bad injury. 2014 wasn't terrible either, 8.5 sacks without Hardy. Not having Hardy on the other side is the main reason his sack count went down. Ealy sure wasn't helping him out in 2014 and CJ still tied his second best tackle season and had his second best season with forced fumbles.

I'm reserving judgement on the "he's done" until I see him on the field for more than a handful of plays. Hard to get much pressure on Mariota when 9 of his 10 throws went under 10 yards.

Again with the injury excuse,  he had a hamstring injury there are guys that have come back from torn ligaments, dislocated shoulder and produced at a higher rate. And now not having Hardy? Really? He should of had more sacks with Hardy suspended. Who the hell does JJ Watt have? Who did Peppers have in the middle of his career? I can name players on top of players with no help who have been productive.

 

Johnson wasn't even that good in the playoffs, go look up his game tape. He got pushed around quite easy. Getting a few sacks doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things when your not getting constant pressure.

 

And that's my whole point with the thread I posted, people on here would flip flop at anything Gettleman does. The fact is after the SB most people thought it was time to get rid of Johnson and draft a DE to pair with Ealy. But now since we have no other options people are really trying to validate starting CJ when they just a few months ago they thought he was washed up.

 

And the point of this thread was to name whose stock dropped I named CJ, you went on defense mode. I have seen him play the last two seasons, so I validate my judgement on that. Start Delaire

[ctrcat]

19 hours ago, rippadonn said:

Yeah, the options will be getting slim very soon.

Other people need elephants too

After you posted this, the second of two 4-3 DE's on this list, Jeremy Mincey, who was a broken down nobody with zero sacks last year, announced his retirement.  http://nfltraderumors.co/top-25-2016-nfl-free-agents-list/

 

[rippadonn]

1 hour ago, ctrcat said:

After you posted this, the second of two 4-3 DE's on this list, Jeremy Mincey, who was a broken down nobody with zero sacks last year, announced his retirement.  http://nfltraderumors.co/top-25-2016-nfl-free-agents-list/

 

If mere fans can see it I would imagine the staff knows it but because of the front office, can't go for the easy fix.

Their hearts were in their throats yesterday when Ealy got hurt. FORGIVENESS would help this team be great again, not just on offense.

[rippadonn]

In classic Belichick fashion he's buttering up the position group he plans to attack calling them "the best in the NFL"

I'd bet he's gonna really test the edges for us to see just where we're really at.

[rippadonn]

2 hours ago, ctrcat said:

After you posted this, the second of two 4-3 DE's on this list, Jeremy Mincey, who was a broken down nobody with zero sacks last year, announced his retirement.  http://nfltraderumors.co/top-25-2016-nfl-free-agents-list/

 

I saw Clowney just terrorizing Drew Brees and a tear came to my eye...