Broncos fan: "You need pie".

[NanuqoftheNorth]

Bottom Line:  Denver made the most of their opportunities... Carolina did not.

Good news is it is a brand new season and the Panthers look to be even better than last year.

 

[Saca312]

18 minutes ago, PleaseGetReal said:

From one perspective, the Panther defense was as deadly.  The trouble is you took away a weapon we weren't counting on.  Nobody was expecting the Broncos offense to perform well, so shutting them down was not really a huge impact.  Panther fans were counting on the offense to have a big night and they got shutdown.  I was expecting the Broncos offense to get shutdown and was hoping they could just avoid screwing up too much.  So while both defense performed well, Denver shutting down Carolina was a much bigger accomplishment, with a much higher impact, than Carolina shutting down Denver.

The special teams screwup only cost you 3 points.  The offense actually lost a yard on the drive before making the FG.  You keep saying our defense "had" opportunities instead of acknowledging that they "made" opportunities.  I don't know why you all cling to an incomplete pass in the first quarter, in your own territory, as the game changer.  You have no idea that a strip sack wouldn't have occurred two plays later and been run back for a TD.  It also implies a softness in the team that they couldn't recover from a simple misque with over 3 quarters of a 0-0 game left to play.

And instead of blaming the refs for the incompletion that they had to call because of the juggle, why not blame Cotchery for not catching it cleanly?  It was in his hands and he botched it.  Stop blaming outside forces when there is accountability to be had on the Panthers team.  

No one expected the Cardinals offense to get shut down, and the Seahawks offense to get shut down the playoff games. Appears you're trying to discredit how stout our defense is. Don't try avoiding the fact that lots of things went your way. 9/10 times the Panthers would've won, simple fact. Mistakes and field position won it for you, all your defense had to do was make an opportunity when they had the advantage, which happened a plenty.

Simply put, don't expect to get so lucky this time. Your ring ceremony will be short lived, and don't expect your fanbase at Mile High to be so pleased when Cam unveils his new dance of the year. Expect to see that on a lot of plays, and *gasp* our offense actually having an answer to your defense.

Consider the Falcons last year. Panthers steam-rolled them the first game, but they came up with an answer the Broncos effectively used, which was a weak link in the Panthers offensive line. To expect the Panthers to not consider that is ludicrous. First game of the year. No tape for the Broncos to look on except from last year. New play calls. New cues. New freshly sharpened daggers. Get the lube ready. It'll be quick and rough.

I'm still laughing at how your fanbase claims your playoff run was tougher than the Panthers. Explain to me how an injured Steelers and depleted Patriots team with no-oline was any better than a fiery Seahawks team and a high octane Cardinals team. Just explain that logic to me. Just accept the fact you guys made most of your luck, and it won't be lasting forever. 

[CarolinaSunday]

Broncos fans forget that they barely made it into the playoffs. Then they played against a decimated Patriots team that was barely better than a college team by the time they played the Broncos (and the Broncos still almost lost). Then they were gifted a Super Bowl by the NFL so Peyton could go out on top. The Panthers would have won that game 8 times out of 10

[PleaseGetReal]

1 hour ago, CarolinaSunday said:

Broncos fans forget that they barely made it into the playoffs. Then they played against a decimated Patriots team that was barely better than a college team by the time they played the Broncos (and the Broncos still almost lost). Then they were gifted a Super Bowl by the NFL so Peyton could go out on top. The Panthers would have won that game 8 times out of 10

Yep, they just barely squeaked into the playoffs in that #1 seed.  The Patriots* team was healthy in the playoffs, and the Patriot* fans were talking the same beatdown smack Panther fans were leading up to the Championship Game, and the Broncos didn't "almost lose", they led the entire game and if they almost anything, it was almost tied, which is vastly different.

If the Broncos were "gifted a Super Bowl" by the NFL then explain why the Panthers weren't similarly gifted a 15-1 season, seeing that you believe the NFL is the conspiracy mastermind scripting the outcomes of games.

I'll give you the 8 out of 10, but I'll take Superbowl 50 and the opening game of the 2016 season, and you can have the 8 imaginary games.  Oh by the way, the NFL doesn't do a series of 10, you have to win the games you play.  

[Wundrbread33]

3 hours ago, PleaseGetReal said:

The ball definitely bounced our way in the game.  But there are a lot of NFL fans who don't understand defensive football, and they think that everything that goes wrong for an offense is a mistake, not realizing that those mistakes are often forced by good defense.  There are plenty of Broncos fans who don't understand how dominant the Denver defense was in that game.  There are also more than a few, I imagine, who are just being polite to you.

Bottom line, I don't believe Carolina crapped the bed entirely.  It's a good team who was forced into mistakes with some poor scheme choices and underestimating the pass rush they were facing.  Blaming the loss entirely on Carolina's mistakes is an insult to both teams.

I disagree because this isn't a complex concept.

So you are saying that good defense affects an offense? 

*Mind blown*

Field position won you guys the game. Both offenses were beaten by the defense they faced, and field position gave you guys the points you otherwise would not have had. Not difficult.

Look forward to our matchup in a few weeks.

[CPantherKing]

1 hour ago, PleaseGetReal said:

On the first fumble, the contact was on the shoulder, a perfectly legal hit.  Cam's head was jostled because of the physics of being hit from the side.  On the second fumble, you're saying it wasn't a fumble, because after the fumble Von illegally batted the ball?  Despite cause and effect not working that way, an illegal bat is called when a player's intention is unquestionably to hit the ball and not attempt a recovery.  There is no bias large enough for someone to truthfully claim that Von's intention was unquestionably to bat and not recover.  It's a call that simply can't be made in that circumstance, and complaining about it is weak.  The officials largely stayed out of the game, and most of the Panthers' penalties were procedure fouls that weren't even judgement calls.

And you should be better than this.  This type of BS conspiracy crap is sour grapes.  If you truly believe the NFL fixes games like this then you shouldn't even be a fan anymore.  NFL game fixing also basically invalidates your 15-1 season if it's just part of the script.  Besides which, Von Miller has more holds not called than any pass rusher I've ever seen in 30 years of NFL fandom, so if that's what the officiating looked like when they were "helping" Manning, then I can't imagine how bad it will get this season.

I am glad you admit that Miller did bat the ball illegally. As for 'intent', that is not part of the rule. Any forcible hit with the hand resulting in the ball traveling toward the opponents end zone is illegal. The ref just needs to see the ball contacted by a player and travel toward the end zone of that player's opposing team. This 'intent' usage is garbage used by Dean Blandino to justify the no call.

The only place for 'intent' with an illegal bat is for a muff. In that case you have to judge the intent of the player trying to catch the ball prior to contacting it with his hands and sending it toward the opponent's end zone.

As for your inability to see a helmet to helmet hit, that is your denial as it is clearly shown prior to Cam Newton losing control of the ball. Miler's helmet does not hit the shoulder of Newton. First, Miller smacks Cam's face mask with his out stretched hand (penalty). This causes Cam to tuck the ball. Then Miller launches into Cam's ear hole with the crown of his helmet (penalty). This stuns Cam opening up the ball to Miller. Now, Miller's shoulder touches Cam's shoulder due to proximity. Next, both of Miller's hands grab at the ball.  Finally, Miller strikes the back of Newton's knee with his outstretched leg (penalty); This causes Cam to release the ball as his leg buckles and he falls backward to the ground. The NFL lets Miller get away with a 3 penalty technique all the time. It is not just Cam that Miller has used this technique for a fumble sack.

Miller's pass rush technique if you ever want to teach it: 1. Open up chest at a 30 degree angle to OT allowing OT to be the lower player. 2. Extend arms toward OT and begin lean when OT shoots his arms out. (This will square up the upper body with the OT while leaving the lower body angled at 30 degrees) 3. At the same time, strike inside hand toward the throat of OT and grasp the back of the outside shoulder pad of the OT with the outside hand. 4. Pull down on the outside shoulder pad with force while leaning on the OTs outside shoulder pad with the inside shoulder pad. 5. Rip through the OTs right shoulder with the inside arm while releasing the outside hand 6. On the approach to the QB after clearing OT: Target QBs ear hole with eyes and extend inside arm toward QBs face mask. 7. Launch body at 45 degree angle while swiping hand downward across face mask toward ball. 8. Inside forearm must be in front of QBs passing arm while outside forearm must be crossing the QBs upper triceps at the same time. 9. On impact of the ear hole, drop hips into a squatting position to reverse momentum while shooting the outside leg across the back of the QBs knees in an attempt to buckle the QBs legs from behind. 10. At the same time as step 9, aggressively rip face mask downward through the throwing arm of the QB while wrapping arms around the forearm of the QBs throwing arm and aggressively strip the ball. (Must have 3 points of impact on the ball with helmet above, outside hand back, and inside hand front.)

The 10 steps to illegally pass rush like Von Miller. If you can get away with it, then do it.

I can detail it all with photos if you like, but I am guessing you just want to stick with the belief that he magically does his pass rush technique with just a shoulder to the QBs shoulder every week.

[PhillyB]

1) estes park is fuging awesome. i used to live in loveland in the late 90's/early 2000s and make trips up to fish in the big thompson river and dick around up in the mountains. i was a kid in colorado during the elway era so i have always been sort of a closet broncos fan, pulling for them as my AFC team unless they're playing the panthers.

2) fug the broncos

[PhillyB]

10 hours ago, PleaseGetReal said:

You're looking forward to seeing the Denver defense minus two role players and a backup? Malik and Danny were good, but hardly significant weapons, and Vance was Malik's backup last season.  

The O-line got blown up because they were terrible.  Bye bye Mathis and Vasquez, who are both older guys and were injured the whole season.  They did not play well.  Bye bye Ryan Clady, who missed 2 of the last 3 seasons, including the 2015 Championship run.  The O-line may not be good this season, but it's hard to be worse than what they put on the field last year.  

Your only intelligent point is at QB, but then again, everyone knows that is an issue, so not exactly penetrating insight.  By the way, though, the Broncos won the Super Bowl last season with historically bad QB play, so I'm not going to stress over it.  Whoever takes the snaps basically just needs to hand the ball off, avoid turning the ball over, and let the epic defense win games.

Owen Daniels was not rehired because they have younger, better options and as for Vernon Davis, do you actually believe the Broncos will miss his 20 catches, including the amazing 0 he put up during the postseason?

I sure hope the Panthers organization does better scouting than their fans, or it will be another 2 TD blowout.  

 

10 hours ago, PleaseGetReal said:

Hope all you want, but whether or not they "take it personal", the Panthers were outplayed by a better defense and a more prepared team.  The best they can hope for is squeeze out a tight victory.  Even if there is some miraculous blowout, it won't be revenge.  The Broncos already won the game that was important.  

Cam isn't going to run over Von. We've already seen what happens when the two of them meet in a game, and it results in Cam on his butt.

It wasn't "your year", it only felt like that because you feasted on a cupcake schedule and believed your own hype.  You were screwed by nothing, except the inherent flaws in the team and the ridiculous overconfidence they brought to the biggest game of the year.  They should have been trying to figure out how to beat an historic defense instead of dabbing and planning parade routes.

The Panthers would need 8 quarters to score 27 points on this defense, and as this time it's a regular season game, they'll have a maximum of 5.  You should shoot a little lower or risk disappointment.

 

8 hours ago, PleaseGetReal said:

Rather than go point by point, I'll just address this line, which is a pretty good summary of your post.  If you're not seeing the way a weak offense team like the Broncos can "handle" a team as stout as the Panthers, you should watch the game the Broncos played on Feb 7, 2016.  They had a very poor offense and played against a heavily favored team and "handled" them pretty well.  I'd say they will use that game's strategy of being more physical on defense in this season's opener.

 

7 hours ago, PleaseGetReal said:

I mean "handled" by taking the game via forced turnovers and a ferocious pass rush that forces bad throws.  You guys still don't get it.  You watched the game but you didn't see.  It wasn't bad luck, or officiating.  The Panthers mistakes were caused by a defense they simply weren't prepared for and weren't physically able to match.  I suppose after the 8th, you guys will find more excuses, and nothing will change except you'll have to say that if they played ten times the Panthers would win eight.  

 

7 hours ago, PleaseGetReal said:

I have all the respect in the world for Peyton Manning.  His first three years in Denver were truly epic, and Broncos fans were lucky to have the opportunity to see him in orange and blue.  But none of that respect, gratitude, and good feeling can alter the facts of 2015 Peyton Manning.  Whether it was his age, the lingering foot injury, a new system that wasn't ideal for his skill set, the horrific play of the offensive line, or more likely, a combination of all these factors, Manning was not good in 2015.  His leadership was certainly crucial in the postseason, but let's not pretend that it was Manning who had Miller and Ware keeping Cam under constant assault for the whole game.  I can appreciate the player Manning was while being realistic about the comparatively minor role he played in ultimately securing the Championship, a Championship that was unequivolly won through the play of an historic defense.

 

6 hours ago, PleaseGetReal said:

Please don't misunderstand my defense of the Broncos as underestimating the Panthers.  They are an excellent team on both sides of the ball.  While there may be questions in the secondary, I don't think anyone with sense would downplay the strength and speed in your front 7.  They have a powerful offense with a QB with all of Cam's ability and the many weapons available to him.  

While I argue against the people claiming this will be a Panther blowout, I certainly don't think the Broncos win a blowout either.  I just believe this is a winnable game, much as I thought the SB was winnable despite the overwhelming feeling to the contrary by many.  

I don't think the Broncos are the type of team to overlook anyone, let alone an extraordinary team that could be looking for payback.  I just don't think the Panthers,or their fans, should repeat the mistake of overconfidence.  This will be a slugfest for both teams and it should be some awesome football.

 

6 hours ago, PleaseGetReal said:

Historic, and arguably better than the 85 Bears or 2000 Ravens.  Obviously the stats don't match, but the 85 Bears had the #2 offense in the league that year and the Ravens had a power running game that helped chew up clock and limit turnovers.  The Broncos defense was on the field more than the inept offense, often covering short fields due to turnovers.  No defense in history has had to carry so much weight, and you supply more evidence in the Broncos offensive stats in the SB. Lowest ever by a Super Bowl winner. It was like that most of the season.  Those "timely" turnovers weren't lucky, it was what they had been doing all season to make up for what was lacking on offense.  I do agree your OC made some really questionable decisions, and I guess we'll find out if he learned when we see if he leaves the edge rushers singled again, or if he at least forces the pressure to come from somewhere else.  Either way, don't doubt that Cam will be under pressure.  It should come down to who can grit their teeth and gut it out to the end.  I know the Broncos can win that type of game, they did it all last season.  We'll find out if the Panthers have gotten tougher.  We agree at least on Sep 8 not getting here fast enough.

 

4 hours ago, PleaseGetReal said:

Losing an all-pro corner is not as big as 2 starters who never even made a pro bowl and a couple backups?  Ok...

The defense is basically intact, and no, it's not all about Von.  It's about the entire defensive unit.  Check the AFCCG for how they handle a fast paced spread offense. 

 

4 hours ago, PleaseGetReal said:

On the first fumble, the contact was on the shoulder, a perfectly legal hit.  Cam's head was jostled because of the physics of being hit from the side.  On the second fumble, you're saying it wasn't a fumble, because after the fumble Von illegally batted the ball?  Despite cause and effect not working that way, an illegal bat is called when a player's intention is unquestionably to hit the ball and not attempt a recovery.  There is no bias large enough for someone to truthfully claim that Von's intention was unquestionably to bat and not recover.  It's a call that simply can't be made in that circumstance, and complaining about it is weak.  The officials largely stayed out of the game, and most of the Panthers' penalties were procedure fouls that weren't even judgement calls.

And you should be better than this.  This type of BS conspiracy crap is sour grapes.  If you truly believe the NFL fixes games like this then you shouldn't even be a fan anymore.  NFL game fixing also basically invalidates your 15-1 season if it's just part of the script.  Besides which, Von Miller has more holds not called than any pass rusher I've ever seen in 30 years of NFL fandom, so if that's what the officiating looked like when they were "helping" Manning, then I can't imagine how bad it will get this season.

 

4 hours ago, PleaseGetReal said:

Alright.  If they have 3 receivers on the field and their receiving TE, that leaves 5 Olinemen with only one guy in the backfield for pass protection.  They singled Olsen without issue during the Super Bowl, so claiming he needs to be doubled is false.  Harris, Talib, and Roby are more than capable of singling your wideouts for the 2.5-3 sec of time Cam will get with the smaller blocking package your formation requires.  Sure if you go with 2 wideouts and keep 2 backs and 2 TEs to block, the corners can't tie them up in single coverage for the 5-6 sec Cam would have, but with only 2 pass routes, they'll have plenty of personnel to double both.  

Will the Panthers get shut down on every play? Of course not, but to claim that they are going to do what no one in the league, including the Panthers, was able to do last season is naive.  

Add all the speed you want, but you sacrifice blocking and increase the pressure from a relentless pass rush.  The Panthers will need to mix it up and get creative and, quite frankly, lucky to find success against this defense.  They will absolutely make plays.  The question is, will they make enough.  Maybe yes, maybe no.  Either way, I'm expecting a close game.

 

3 hours ago, PleaseGetReal said:

The ball definitely bounced our way in the game.  But there are a lot of NFL fans who don't understand defensive football, and they think that everything that goes wrong for an offense is a mistake, not realizing that those mistakes are often forced by good defense.  There are plenty of Broncos fans who don't understand how dominant the Denver defense was in that game.  There are also more than a few, I imagine, who are just being polite to you.

Bottom line, I don't believe Carolina crapped the bed entirely.  It's a good team who was forced into mistakes with some poor scheme choices and underestimating the pass rush they were facing.  Blaming the loss entirely on Carolina's mistakes is an insult to both teams.

 

3 hours ago, PleaseGetReal said:

From one perspective, the Panther defense was as deadly.  The trouble is you took away a weapon we weren't counting on.  Nobody was expecting the Broncos offense to perform well, so shutting them down was not really a huge impact.  Panther fans were counting on the offense to have a big night and they got shutdown.  I was expecting the Broncos offense to get shutdown and was hoping they could just avoid screwing up too much.  So while both defense performed well, Denver shutting down Carolina was a much bigger accomplishment, with a much higher impact, than Carolina shutting down Denver.

The special teams screwup only cost you 3 points.  The offense actually lost a yard on the drive before making the FG.  You keep saying our defense "had" opportunities instead of acknowledging that they "made" opportunities.  I don't know why you all cling to an incomplete pass in the first quarter, in your own territory, as the game changer.  You have no idea that a strip sack wouldn't have occurred two plays later and been run back for a TD.  It also implies a softness in the team that they couldn't recover from a simple misque with over 3 quarters of a 0-0 game left to play.

And instead of blaming the refs for the incompletion that they had to call because of the juggle, why not blame Cotchery for not catching it cleanly?  It was in his hands and he botched it.  Stop blaming outside forces when there is accountability to be had on the Panthers team.  

 

walk in a lake assbag

[The Lobo]

4 hours ago, PleaseGetReal said:

The ball definitely bounced our way in the game.  But there are a lot of NFL fans who don't understand defensive football, and they think that everything that goes wrong for an offense is a mistake, not realizing that those mistakes are often forced by good defense.  There are plenty of Broncos fans who don't understand how dominant the Denver defense was in that game.  There are also more than a few, I imagine, who are just being polite to you.

Bottom line, I don't believe Carolina crapped the bed entirely.  It's a good team who was forced into mistakes with some poor scheme choices and underestimating the pass rush they were facing.  Blaming the loss entirely on Carolina's mistakes is an insult to both teams.

You have been making solid points and have been very reasonable. Surely, you must know that a lot went wrong for Carolina right? For example, Cotchety didn't drop one pass all year until that game, and both passes he dropped were huge. Tolbert, I don't think he fumbled in years and had two in one game (granted one went back to him). Ted Ginn dropped a pass that went right in to TJ Wards hands. I'm not crying about it, I'm just saying a lot went right for Denver. That pick by Ward and fumble by Tolbert were HUGE turnovers. The Tolbert fumble was worse I though because there was momentum and it has a big run as well. It's not like the pass was bad, it hit him right in the hands. I'm just saying a lot went wrong for Carolina by their own hands no less. Congrats in the Super Bowl the sequel should be good. Good luck the 8th and Go Panthers. 

[Bj-Monster23]

17 hours ago, PleaseGetReal said:

Hope all you want, but whether or not they "take it personal", the Panthers were outplayed by a better defense and a more prepared team.  The best they can hope for is squeeze out a tight victory.  Even if there is some miraculous blowout, it won't be revenge.  The Broncos already won the game that was important.  

Cam isn't going to run over Von. We've already seen what happens when the two of them meet in a game, and it results in Cam on his butt.

It wasn't "your year", it only felt like that because you feasted on a cupcake schedule and believed your own hype.  You were screwed by nothing, except the inherent flaws in the team and the ridiculous overconfidence they brought to the biggest game of the year.  They should have been trying to figure out how to beat an historic defense instead of dabbing and planning parade routes.

The Panthers would need 8 quarters to score 27 points on this defense, and as this time it's a regular season game, they'll have a maximum of 5.  You should shoot a little lower or risk disappointment.

Lmao this is a new season with two completely different teams. You guys are trying decide who will be your starting QB for this season with the edge going to Mark Sanchez. You will be lucky to win 8 to 9 games with that QB play. Don't get me wrong Denver has a very good defense but it's not the same defense you had last year. 

[shaqattaq]

On 8/18/2016 at 0:06 AM, Frizzy350 said:

I hope the team takes it personal and flat out humiliates the Broncos on opening night.
I don't want to see us try to play ball control the second half after a 28-3 first half, I don't want to see the defense in a soft zone, I want revenge after that BS anomaly of a superbowl.
I want to see Cam run Von Miller over, repeatedly.
I want to see Talib play, and humiliated repeatedly by both Benji and Funch, and I want him to act so foolish he gets himself kicked out of the game by his own coaches or the refs (ala smitty).
I want to see our front seven feast on the butt fumble man.  I don't even care about our secondary, I don't want to see the ball in their territory.
I'm NOT over the superbowl, it was our year and we were screwed by every possible degree imaginable.
Let the league know that no defense has a chance in hell at stopping us.  We gave them fun, drama, controversy and smiles and everything fans of the league wanted.  Playtime is over, we are now the evil empire, get ready to complain about our lack of sportsmanship and our undefeated record.

Fans of 31 other teams can go to hell.  Be afraid special pants.

With your permission, I'd like to print out this rant, enlarge it, frame it, and hang it over my mantle for all to admire.

[PleaseGetReal]

9 hours ago, CPantherKing said:

I am glad you admit that Miller did bat the ball illegally. As for 'intent', that is not part of the rule. Any forcible hit with the hand resulting in the ball traveling toward the opponents end zone is illegal. The ref just needs to see the ball contacted by a player and travel toward the end zone of that player's opposing team. This 'intent' usage is garbage used by Dean Blandino to justify the no call.

The only place for 'intent' with an illegal bat is for a muff. In that case you have to judge the intent of the player trying to catch the ball prior to contacting it with his hands and sending it toward the opponent's end zone.

As for your inability to see a helmet to helmet hit, that is your denial as it is clearly shown prior to Cam Newton losing control of the ball. Miler's helmet does not hit the shoulder of Newton. First, Miller smacks Cam's face mask with his out stretched hand (penalty). This causes Cam to tuck the ball. Then Miller launches into Cam's ear hole with the crown of his helmet (penalty). This stuns Cam opening up the ball to Miller. Now, Miller's shoulder touches Cam's shoulder due to proximity. Next, both of Miller's hands grab at the ball.  Finally, Miller strikes the back of Newton's knee with his outstretched leg (penalty); This causes Cam to release the ball as his leg buckles and he falls backward to the ground. The NFL lets Miller get away with a 3 penalty technique all the time. It is not just Cam that Miller has used this technique for a fumble sack.

Lots of gibberish...

I can detail it all with photos if you like, but I am guessing you just want to stick with the belief that he magically does his pass rush technique with just a shoulder to the QBs shoulder every week.

Intent is part of the adjudication of the rule, otherwise, every player who attempts to pick up a loose ball and fails would be penalized for an illegal bat, and that's not what the rule is for.  The referee calls it for someone who is unquestionably intending to bat, and does not call it when it may have been a failed recovery that pushed the ball.  At speed, this appeared to be a failed recovery, hence the correct no-call, despite Von's admission of batting it after the fact.

Von's chest makes contact with Cam's shoulder.  That is where contact is initiated and that's where the force of the contact was.  Their helmets may have touched, but claiming he led with the crown of his helmet is a gross misinterpretation of both the situation and the rule.  Helmets touch when guys get close, it's illegal when the helmet initiates or receives the contact or is used as a weapon.  While Von's hand brushes Cam's facemask lightly, it is immediately removed without grasping and is not nearly hard enough to be called a blow to the head, so it's no penalty. Trying to call a legwhip here is laughable and makes me question whether or not I should be engaging you at all.  If you honestly believe this is a legwhip, then this will be our last exchange because I can't help you.  If you're just trolling me to get a response, congratulations, you got me.  

While I have no doubt that you can extract frames that allow you to write your narrative, watch the video.  The action in motion is a lot more important than a frame showing Von's hand on a facemask without being able to see how long it was there and how hard he hit. 

[PleaseGetReal]

8 hours ago, The Lobo said:

You have been making solid points and have been very reasonable. Surely, you must know that a lot went wrong for Carolina right? For example, Cotchety didn't drop one pass all year until that game, and both passes he dropped were huge. Tolbert, I don't think he fumbled in years and had two in one game (granted one went back to him). Ted Ginn dropped a pass that went right in to TJ Wards hands. I'm not crying about it, I'm just saying a lot went right for Denver. That pick by Ward and fumble by Tolbert were HUGE turnovers. The Tolbert fumble was worse I though because there was momentum and it has a big run as well. It's not like the pass was bad, it hit him right in the hands. I'm just saying a lot went wrong for Carolina by their own hands no less. Congrats in the Super Bowl the sequel should be good. Good luck the 8th and Go Panthers. 

I already said the ball bounced our way.  A bunch of the incompletions were caused by good defensive play, knocking the ball out, pressuring Cam into a bad throw, etc. but there were a lot of unforced errors.  Good throws that were delivered to the receiver, who inexplicably dropped it before contact.  Tolbert had a really bad one in the flat if I remember correctly.  You mentioned Ginn's drop, and you're right, if that bounces any other way Ward doesn't intercept.

I have no trouble conceding that the Broncos got some breaks in the game.  I just object when people claim the entire victory was "handed to them", by either the refs, the Panthers, the NFL, the mafia, etc.  The Broncos played hard, came with an outstanding gameplan, and executed some outstanding play on defense.  They did it against an opponent against whom few gave them even a chance.  I resent people diminishing their achievement to satisfy their own sour grapes.  I appreciate the rational fans like you, and agree, the sequel should be good.  

2 hours ago, Bj-Monster23 said:

Lmao this is a new season with two completely different teams. You guys are trying decide who will be your starting QB for this season with the edge going to Mark Sanchez. You will be lucky to win 8 to 9 games with that QB play. Don't get me wrong Denver has a very good defense but it's not the same defense you had last year. 

They're not completely different, though.  Your starting offense is almost identical, our starting defense is almost identical.  You say it's not the same, but they lost 2 backups and two of their most replaceable starters.  While I recognize that there are questions at QB, what you're not recognizing is the QB position doesn't have the same importance on this Denver team as it does for everyone else.  Whether it's Sanchez or Siemian, their job will be to hand the ball off, take safe passes, exploit opportunities when they arrive, and most importantly punt the ball away rather than risk a turnover.  No one in the organization is going to expect them to lead thee team to victory, they will be expected to stay out of the defense's way.  If the offense can take care of the ball better than last year, a pretty low bar honestly, the defense will be even better than last season.  

[PhillyB]

37 minutes ago, 15 said:

come on phil, I was getting ready for you to intellectually demolish this guys hopes and dreams. #disappointed 

some days it's just not worth it