Fox can't win without Seifert's picks

[Jangler]

Seriously dude...if you cant look at this roster and see the talent that is all up and down it then you really need to take Football 101. Talent is NOT the problem on this team.....IMO its coaching and the coaches schemes. We have Super Bowl talent, and bottom feeder coaching.

:iamwithstupid:

See, now that makes sense. John Fox can't win with John Fox talent.

[jpo287]

Seriously dude...if you cant look at this roster and see the talent that is all up and down it then you really need to take Football 101. Talent is NOT the problem on this team.....IMO its coaching and the coaches schemes. We have Super Bowl talent, and bottom feeder coaching.

Yeah, I guess your right. Peppers, Louis Leonard, Damione Lewis and Charles Johnson are just as good as Peppers, Buckner, Jenkins and Rucker (never mind that Jenkins and Rucker have/had 7 Pro bowls between them).

A 36 year old Moose is just as good as he was at 30, Jarrett is just as good as Proehl and Jake at 34 is just as good as Jake was at 28.

You guys are so hell-bent on slamming Fox's coaching (which I am not defending by-the-way), that you can't see the real questions/point which is the teams performance has deteriorated as the original players have left. Now I don't know if that's Fox's or Hurney's fault-and apparently no one else seems to know or care to guess

[jpo287]

john vernon died in 2005. Maybe that's the real reason? Makes as much sense as your drugged out theory...

Brilliant!

[jpo287]

john vernon died in 2005. Maybe that's the real reason? Makes as much sense as your drugged out theory...

brilliant!

[mr beauxjangles]

Yeah, I guess your right. Peppers, Louis Leonard, Damione Lewis and Charles Johnson are just as good as Peppers, Buckner, Jenkins and Rucker (never mind that Jenkins and Rucker have/had 7 Pro bowls between them).

A 36 year old Moose is just as good as he was at 30, Jarrett is just as good as Proehl and Jake at 34 is just as good as Jake was at 28.

You guys are so hell-bent on slamming Fox's coaching (which I am not defending by-the-way), that you can't see the real questions/point which is the teams performance has deteriorated as the original players have left. Now I don't know if that's Fox's or Hurney's fault-and apparently no one else seems to know or care to guess

Conveniently you ignored the offensive line and running backs. Every single one of them is better. Linebackers as a whole are better too.

[/thread]

[joemac]

Conveniently you ignored the offensive line and running backs. Every single one of them is better. Linebackers as a whole are better too.

[/thread]

Booyah!

and I second the /thread

[jpo287]

Conveniently you ignored the offensive line and running backs. Every single one of them is better. Linebackers as a whole are better too.

[/thread]

In 2002, we had Mark Fields and a fairly healthy Dan Morgan. Beason and Davis are good but certainly not better and it cost 2 first round picks to get there.

The line is good/better but it cost two first rounders.

Running backs are definitely better but again, at the cost of two first rounders. Given all the other needs, I can't help but feel that at least one of those two picks should have been spent elsewhere--like say on the defensive line or a QB or a wide receiver or a safety.

Defensively, other than some linebackers and a sometimes motivated DE, we have a mediocre roster that is no where near as good as what Fox inherited.

And receiver wise, he still has EXACTLY what he got in 2002--Smith and Moose!

[Miaoww]

As much as I hate Fox, let's not lose our minds by starting to praise George Seifert.

Seifert was a good judge of talent.

[dpanthersman]

When Fox arrived, he had Mike Rucker, Kris Jenkins, Mark Fields, Brentson Buckner, Dan Morgan, Mike Minter, Steve Smith, Mushin Muhammed, Brad Hoover, John Kasay, Todd Sauerbrun (love him or hate him he could kick the ball) and Nick Goings. With those players, Fox lead the Panthers to some of their best seasons ever. But as those players have slowly left, so have the wins.

mike rucker< peppers

kris jenkins>kemo

mark fields< thomas davis

brenston buckner = damione lewis

dan morgan < beason

mike minter was here before seifert

steve smith good pick there but didnt break out until fox got here only had 10 catches is rookie year when seifert was still coaching

moose was here before seifert

hoover- good pick up there but only started a combined 11 games in his two years while seifert was coaching

john kasey was here before seifert

sauerbrun = baker ( sauerbruns off field issues make baker better pickup imo)

goings < stewart

so besides smith and hoover who didnt develop into great players until fox was here. i would like you to backup while those players are better than the player fox brought in to replace them, besides the fact the last few seasons havent been as successful than the first few.

as much as u may dislike fox his tenure here has been allot better than seiferts. fox is very respected in the league and if he is fired he will have another head coaching job somewhere in less than a week

[jramsey4]

Hey everybody I got two words for you

Marc Ross

Our Future GM

[jpo287]

mike rucker< peppers

kris jenkins>kemo

mark fields< thomas davis

brenston buckner = damione lewis

dan morgan < beason

mike minter was here before seifert

steve smith good pick there but didnt break out until fox got here only had 10 catches is rookie year when seifert was still coaching

moose was here before seifert

hoover- good pick up there but only started a combined 11 games in his two years while seifert was coaching

john kasey was here before seifert

sauerbrun = baker ( sauerbruns off field issues make baker better pickup imo)

goings < stewart

so besides smith and hoover who didnt develop into great players until fox was here. i would like you to backup while those players are better than the player fox brought in to replace them, besides the fact the last few seasons havent been as successful than the first few.

as much as u may dislike fox his tenure here has been allot better than seiferts. fox is very respected in the league and if he is fired he will have another head coaching job somewhere in less than a week

Thomas Davis isn't anywhere near what Mark Fields was. Not even close! Fields was a 2 time Pro Bowler. How many has Davis been to. And Buckner is no better than Lewis...please! And comparing Stewart to Goings makes absolutely no sense.

But I really think you have missed the point. My argument is that Fox had a lot of early success because of the talent that was already here when he arrived. As that talent hads left, so has his success. It really has nothing to do with Seifert. Seifert was just responsible for filling a big portion of the roster prior to fox's arrival.

[dpanthersman]

Thomas Davis isn't anywhere near what Mark Fields was. Not even close! Fields was a 2 time Pro Bowler. How many has Davis been to. And Buckner is no better than Lewis...please! And comparing Stewart to Goings makes absolutely no sense.

But I really think you have missed the point. My argument is that Fox had a lot of early success because of the talent that was already here when he arrived. As that talent hads left, so has his success. It really has nothing to do with Seifert. Seifert was just responsible for filling a big portion of the roster prior to fox's arrival.

as a starter for the panthers brenston buckners best season he recorded 28 tackles 1 ff 5 pass deflections and 3.5 sacks

in lewis first season as a starter he recorded 33 tackles 1 ff 5 pass deflections and 3.5 sacks

mark fields was here at the end of his career he played two seasons, those two season he had 125 tackles 1 ff 3 pass deflections and 11.5 sacks

the past two years for thomas davis he has recorded 221 tackles 4 ff 11 pass deflections and 6.5 sacks thats not even including his first two seasons not even close?

goings was a rb. so is stewart. how does that not makes sense? i know goings played allot of special teams. but stewart has done the same.

i understand ur point. and my point is the talent that fox has brought in is just as good if not better than what seifert had. and his success here has nothing to do with the seifert

[Mr. Scot]

mike rucker< peppers

kris jenkins>kemo

mark fields< thomas davis

brenston buckner = damione lewis

dan morgan < beason

mike minter was here before seifert

steve smith good pick there but didnt break out until fox got here only had 10 catches is rookie year when seifert was still coaching

moose was here before seifert

hoover- good pick up there but only started a combined 11 games in his two years while seifert was coaching

john kasey was here before seifert

sauerbrun = baker ( sauerbruns off field issues make baker better pickup imo)

goings < stewart

so besides smith and hoover who didnt develop into great players until fox was here. i would like you to backup while those players are better than the player fox brought in to replace them, besides the fact the last few seasons havent been as successful than the first few.

as much as u may dislike fox his tenure here has been allot better than seiferts. fox is very respected in the league and if he is fired he will have another head coaching job somewhere in less than a week

Also worth remembering that Fields didn't play in the 2003 Super Bowl season.

What this thread ignores is that the guy who was in charge of college scouting under Seifert remained so under Fox up through 2005. After what was arguably one of the worst drafts in team history, he went on to the Rams (who have sucked ever since).

From 2006 on, Don Gregory's been running that end of the show, and the results have been mostly good. Marc Koncz was running the pro scouting under Seifert, and still is.

[1789Cardiac Cats9020]

In Foxes first four years with the Panthers, they had 2 winning seasons, went to 7 playoff games, 2 NFC Champinship games and a Superbowl. In the last 4 years (counting this season as the 4th), they will have had just 1 winning season and only 1 playoff appearance. The difference--players.

When Fox arrived, he had Mike Rucker, Kris Jenkins, Mark Fields, Brentson Buckner, Dan Morgan, Mike Minter, Steve Smith, Mushin Muhammed, Brad Hoover, John Kasay, Todd Sauerbrun (love him or hate him he could kick the ball) and Nick Goings. With those players, Fox lead the Panthers to some of their best seasons ever. But as those players have slowly left, so have the wins.

Sorry, but the team I watched on Sunday didn't play with near the intensity or swagger of Fox's early years. My question is, is this Fox's fault, Hurney's fault or a combination of the two. Because while there are some decent players on the current roster, it can't compare to the team/players he inherited.

And finally, while I do like Fox, I can't help but think the Panthers have been heading in the wrong direction for the past 4 years and I see nothing that would lead me to believe that he can turn things around-at least not with the players he currently has.

Dude, I commend you for fighting so hard to support your ....idea....but it doesn't mean your idea isn't foolish. 12-4......was achieved with only Julius Peppers as the original remaining Panthers defensive lineman.

The worst part of it all is, you actually conveniently omit the gems like Beason, Davis, Harris, Kemo......all players that I feel were better than their Seifert counterparts with the exception of Kemo. What about Gross and our O-line?

The worst part of it is you claim not to be slamming Fox, yet you are here saying basically..had it not been for his predecessor, he would have put together a team of scrubs. You don't like where this team is headed, when the most recent seasonal record we had was an NFC South championship. You make no sense, no logic, you simply wanted to start a thread, and now you're seeing the people on this forum aren't as gullible or easily convinced of idiotic ranting, as you'd like to believe.

Mods...we need a good solid neg rep system. It won't cure the foolishness, but hey..it's a start