Read into this what you will....

[CRA]

18 hours ago, CPantherKing said:

Did you know Steve Smith has only muffed 2 punt returns as a Panther? He successfully fielded 178 punts as a Panther and had several big punt returns including a TD prior to his muffed punt. He had already demonstrated he could go an entire season in 2001 without muffing the punt.

 

 

89 had 5 fumbles as a punt returner in 2001...3 fumbles as a kicker retuner.  89 had a total of 8special teams fumbles in 2001.  8!  8 in one season on special teams.  His first 3 seasons he averaged a little over 3 fumbles per season as a punt returner.  

Those stats of course are from real games and exclude looking at preseason. 

He muffed 2 in his career? Where you pulling that from? 

Also...LOL at arguing a returner fumbling like crazy isn't a big deal if they all aren't muffs.  89 did it all early on

 

 

[Floppin]

11 hours ago, CPantherKing said:

Not doomed forever. Take the year to perfect it, and try again next preseason. No time to waste on players who are not prepared for specialty positions and making mental mistakes. He only gets 30 chances a season. Any of those 30 chances could cost the Panthers a game if he muffs it.

 

It was one preseason game. His first live action doing so and he misjudged one punt. Quit being stupidly hyperbolic.

[uncfan888]

Well, if anything can be said about CPK, he's tenacious...  He continues to post ridiculous comments even though no one here wants to hear it

[The NFL Shield At Midfield]

26 minutes ago, CRA said:

89 had 5 fumbles as a punt returner in 2001...3 fumbles as a kicker retuner.  89 had a total of 8special teams fumbles in 2001.  8!  8 in one season on special teams.  His first 3 seasons he averaged a little of 3 fumbles per season as a punt returner.  

Those stats of course are from real games and exclude looking at preseason. 

He muffed 2 in his career? Where you pulling that from? 

Also...LOL at arguing a returner fumbling like crazy isn't a big deal if they all aren't muffs.  89 did it all early on

 

 

yeah why the hell are muffs a big deal and fumbles aren't.  a fumble is potentially more dangerous because it can be returned.

[CRA]

1 hour ago, The NFL Shield At Midfield said:

yeah why the hell are muffs a big deal and fumbles aren't.  a fumble is potentially more dangerous because it can be returned.

A muff is and fumble.

my only point was 89 fumbled all the time early in his career but he was a legit return man and dangerous.

89 also improved on his ball security.  Byrd looks legitimately dangerous...so there is no point treating him like Bersin (who isn't dangerous and not only muffed but looked unsure even fair catching easy ones)

[CPantherKing]

29 minutes ago, CRA said:

89 had 5 fumbles as a punt returner in 2001...3 fumbles as a kicker retuner.  89 had a total of 8special teams fumbles in 2001.  8!  8 in one season on special teams.  His first 3 seasons he averaged a little of 3 fumbles per season as a punt returner.  

Those stats of course are from real games and exclude looking at preseason. 

He muffed 2 in his career? Where you pulling that from? 

Also...LOL at arguing a returner fumbling like crazy isn't a big deal if they all aren't muffs.  89 did it all early on

 

 

This is about fielding punts/mental errors and not about ball protection from defenders while the ball is in play. Muffs mean a player can not field the ball. The opposing team has no role with impacting the fielding of a punt outside of getting into the punt returners head. This is no different than the role a defender has before a long snap. I guess you would be okay with long snappers sailing the ball over the punters/holders head.

The issue with Byrd is his ability to be a punt returner and consistently field punts.

As for looking up the muffs, find the punt return fumbles and see if they were listed as a muff in the play description. You will see Smith had no muffs in 2001. His first muff was in the 2002 Ravens game where he tried to field a punt at the sideline and it went out of bounds.

The reason muffs are worse than fumbles is because they typically occur in vulnerable areas of the field that give an immediate advantage to the opposing team for field position. Muffs are a mental error that is not forced by the opposing team. This should not happen at all. No different than a longsnapper sailing balls, kickers shanking kicks, QBs unable to complete a hand off or center exchange, and a RBs inability to receive a lateral/pitch. There is a reason long snappers, punt returners, punters, and kickers get replaced quickly when they demonstrate they can not execute the most important and routine part of their job.

Anyone stating that forced fumbles are worse than muffs has clearly not been involved with the game at a college or professional level.

[Pimpdaddy]

On 8/12/2016 at 10:19 PM, Mage said:

Benjamin is a massive human being.

...the Predator...

[CRA]

1 hour ago, CPantherKing said:

This is about fielding punts/mental errors and not about ball protection from defenders while the ball is in play. Muffs mean a player can not field the ball. The opposing team has no role with impacting the fielding of a punt outside of getting into the punt returners head. This is no different than the role a defender has before a long snap. I guess you would be okay with long snappers sailing the ball over the punters/holders head.

The issue with Byrd is his ability to be a punt returner and consistently field punts.

As for looking up the muffs, find the punt return fumbles and see if they were listed as a muff in the play description. You will see Smith had no muffs in 2001. His first muff was in the 2002 Ravens game where he tried to field a punt at the sideline and it went out of bounds.

The reason muffs are worse than fumbles is because they typically occur in vulnerable areas of the field that give an immediate advantage to the opposing team for field position. Muffs are a mental error that is not forced by the opposing team. This should not happen at all. No different than a longsnapper sailing balls, kickers shanking kicks, QBs unable to complete a hand off or center exchange, and a RBs inability to receive a lateral/pitch. There is a reason long snappers, punt returners, punters, and kickers get replaced quickly when they demonstrate they can not execute the most important and routine part of their job.

Anyone stating that forced fumbles are worse than muffs has clearly not been involved with the game at a college or professional level.

Return fumbles generally occur in vulnerable areas of the field as well....and muffs are logged as fumbles.  When 89 had 8 fumbles as a rookie he wasn't flipping the field on all those and then fumbling

Issue is consistency.  Byrd hasn't been given the opportunity to show what he is or isn't consistent at.   Bersin was given that. 

Please link the site that documents a players career muffs vs fumbles so I can educate myself then.

also players muff balls and recover them...and no stat is logged to reflect that (89 had those too) 

bottom line is Byrd showed return ability we haven't seen in some time...now he gets the chance to prove he can also handle the mental aspect and show steady hands.   One muff doesn't tell us what he is....same would be if he broke a return all the way for a TD.  We need to see more 

[The NFL Shield At Midfield]

is not securing the ball properly in traffic not a mental error?

[CPantherKing]

9 minutes ago, CRA said:

Return fumbles generally occur in vulnerable areas of the field as well....and muffs are logged as fumbles.  When 89 had 8 fumbles as a rookie he wasn't flipping the field on all those and then fumbling

Issue is consistency.  Byrd hasn't been given the opportunity to show what he is or isn't consistent at.   Bersin was given that. 

Please link the site that documents a players career muffs vs fumbles so I can educate myself then.

also players muff balls and recover them...and no stat is logged to reflect that (89 had those too) 

bottom line is Byrd showed return ability we haven't seen in some time...now he gets the chance to prove he can also handle the mental aspect and show steady hands.   One muff doesn't tell us what he is....same would be if he broke a return all the way for a TD.  We need to see more 

You are wrong. A fumble is logged for a muff even if it is recovered. It states it in the play on any stat site that references the play. Muffs are not a common occurrence in the NFL. You keep tying in kickoffs and offensive plays to skew your data.

Also, Steve Smith did not lose possession on any of his punt return fumbles, and his muff in 2002 was at the sidelines and went out of bounds.

Byrd's punt return ability registered an average of 3 yards on 3 returns, and he had 1 muff that he was unable to recover. Not sure why you think that is 'return ability we have not seen in some time'. Ted Ginn would take exception with that. You seem to believe kick returns and punt returns are the same thing. They require completely different skill sets.

[CPantherKing]

10 minutes ago, The NFL Shield At Midfield said:

is not securing the ball properly in traffic not a metal error?

When it is a forced fumble it is not considered a mental error. The defense causes the fumble, and not the offensive player in that situation.

[CRA]

1 hour ago, CPantherKing said:

You are wrong. A fumble is logged for a muff even if it is recovered. It states it in the play on any stat site that references the play. Muffs are not a common occurrence in the NFL. You keep tying in kickoffs and offensive plays to skew your data.

Also, Steve Smith did not lose possession on any of his punt return fumbles, and his muff in 2002 was at the sidelines and went out of bounds.

Byrd's punt return ability registered an average of 3 yards on 3 returns, and he had 1 muff that he was unable to recover. Not sure why you think that is 'return ability we have not seen in some time'. Ted Ginn would take exception with that. You seem to believe kick returns and punt returns are the same thing. They require completely different skill sets.

I'll have to research it...not sure when a guy muffs AND then advances it himself it always gets the fumble tag (but it might).

in 2001 he might not of lost them...but he fumbled and the ball went backwards (sometimes recovered by him and sometimes by teammates).  That is negative  yardage on a punt that was a loose ball. 

I don't think KR/PR are the same thing....just pointing our return man in 2001 averaged a fumble every other game while you go overboard on 1 preseason one for a guy leaning the trade 

KR/PR are very different skills.  As far as having a liability as returner at one vs the other? Both would be equally bad as it would often give the opponent potentially gimmie points. 

Lastly, fumbles actually being lost is largely luck....putting them on the ground is an issue.  

This isn't a bash 89 thread as he was AWESOME.  It was merely to show even our best put the ball on the ground and did it overall more than anyone that wasn't a QB.  So 1 muff for a player is just that....nothing more.  Total overreaction on Byrd going on

[Kevin Greene]

Let youth be served.