Are the Panthers receivers just average?

[KB_fan]

Here's more of that PFF article and their comments on our WRs.  Basically I think it shows that our coaches and staff knew how to maximize their talent.  They put the guys in the roles in which they could excel.  But the WRs still had to execute.  And they did.  Sure, it was limited targets, but 10 TDs by Ginn ain't chopped liver folks.  I'll take that kind of production from a "below average" WR any day.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/fantasy-introducing-wide-receiver-efficiency-rating/

Quote

While the past two players had similar stories in 2015, Ted Ginn took a much different path to being ranked fourth in WRER. When you think of all of Ginn’s long touchdown catches, you might believe that he did well in terms of efficiency. However, it seems unlikely that a team’s top wide out with only 44 catches on 90 targets for a little more than 700 yards would end up doing that well. As it turns out, Carolina did not use Ginn like its top receiver. He played only 60 percent of his team’s snaps and Corey Brown was on the field more often than he was. Greg Olsen was used as the Panthers’ top target but Ginn’s playing time is about what you would expect from someone who is sharing time as the team’s second receiver regardless of who the tight end is. This surely helped Ginn’s efficiency, as we have seen him enough throughout his career to know that he wouldn’t do so well playing close to 90 percent of his team’s snaps. Credit should be given to Ginn for getting open when he was asked to but I think the interesting takeaway here is that the Panthers’ receivers did much better than anticipated. Although none of them played more than 70 percent of the team’s snaps, the Panthers’ wide receivers were very efficient. One of the arguments that people have been using to vote Cam Newton for MVP is that he has had no weapons to work with on the outside. While none of these guys were established top weapons and probably would not have done as well if they played more often, they did quite well in limited time. Ginn finished fourth, Devin Funchess was 21^st, Jerricho Cotchery was 55^th, and Corey Brown was the only one who was underwhelming at 115^th. Brown played the most but only a little bit more than Ginn, so this group averages out to a pretty good efficiency rating. These four were also on the field enough to account for a little more than two receivers on the field for every play. In other words, Ron Rivera kept rotating his receivers to make sure that none of them were on the field too much so that each one could still be effective in the role he was asked to perform. At the end of the season, this group as a whole was above average, showing that Newton really did have weapons to work with. If you want to vote Newton for MVP for other reasons that is fine, but using his weapons as a reason to cast your ballot for him is unfair considering what these guys were able to do on a per-route-run basis.

 

[KB_fan]

And this on Funchess:

Quote

I also mentioned the Panthers’ efficient weapons before but Devin Funchess beat out all of his rookie peers in WRER. While Amari Cooper was talked about more and Stefon Diggs had more highlight plays, Funchess was quietly helping his team just as much when he was on the field. His separation score ranked eighth among qualified receivers and his WRER was 21^st overall. Although he wasn’t on the field too much to start his career, he averaged more than a target for every four routes he ran, a mark that Cooper and Diggs didn’t even come close to. Seeing that Corey Brown didn’t play nearly as well as Carolina had hoped and that Ted Ginn doesn’t play every down, Funchess may be in line for a bigger role next season. Even if he isn’t quite ready, the Panthers will have Kelvin Benjamin back and Greg Olsen is still their next best receiving option, so the entire offense won’t falter because of him. If Funchess shows that he isn’t ready yet then the Panthers would have other options to turn to. Right now, though, Funchess is definitely one of the better backup receivers in the game and might have the ability to turn into a good starter, too.

 

[shaqattaq]

On 7/16/2016 at 7:57 AM, Jeremy Igo said:

Can you have the #1 offense in the NFL with no above average receivers? 

"we ain't got no wide-outs!!"    

Proehl and I agree with your assessment. 

[GoobyPls]

4 hours ago, KB_fan said:

Our whole offense was very low in yards because we had the shortest fields of any team in the league thanks to all the turnovers forced by our defense.   Many drives we only needed to go 40 - 60 yards to score.

Ginn may have gotten the most WR targets, but his targets were way less than most other #1 WRs and he was incredibly efficient in scoring with the limited targets he got, in spite of all the drops.

I didn't dig into it carefully, but awhile back I bookmarked a PFF article which talked about WR efficiency.  Ginn was noted as one of the best.   I might be able to provide some more stats on WR efficiency later today...

https://www.profootballfocus.com/fantasy-introducing-wide-receiver-efficiency-rating/

It was low in yards cause we had a ton of drops and our receivers route tree was very limited. You are using baseball stats to try to justify Ginn's lack of production, reality is if we release all our receivers they would be second rate expandable free agents.

[Razeyfingers]

I think KB and Funchess will make:

 

Julio Jones look clumsy

Mike Evans soft 

Vincent Jackson slow and old

. . . aaand Cooks look like a smurf.

 

LoL some of you wanted to draft Moritz Bofinger or whatever his name is. 

 

 

[KB_fan]

1 hour ago, GoobyPls said:

It was low in yards cause we had a ton of drops and our receivers route tree was very limited. You are using baseball stats to try to justify Ginn's lack of production, reality is if we release all our receivers they would be second rate expandable free agents.

No it was low in yards because we had the best average starting drive position in the NFL.   Good Grief.

I'm not denying that Ginn has not been in the past and likely still would not be a good receiver in the future for other teams, but he has certain talents and our coaches managed to design an offense where his talent was maximized.   It took BOTH our scheme (and Cam) AND his talent to arrive at his excellent production in 2015.

[GoobyPls]

52 minutes ago, KB_fan said:

No it was low in yards because we had the best average starting drive position in the NFL.   Good Grief.

I'm not denying that Ginn has not been in the past and likely still would not be a good receiver in the future for other teams, but he has certain talents and our coaches managed to design an offense where his talent was maximized.   It took BOTH our scheme (and Cam) AND his talent to arrive at his excellent production in 2015.

Yeah I'm sure dropping 50 yards TD on the regular had nothing to do with his lack of yards.

 

 

And what does all that have to do with NFL rankings? This isn't about who fits who system, it's about ranking receiving cores. Give Cam almost any other receiving core and he most certainly would have put up better numbers

[CPcavedweller]

Funchess has a fluidity about the way he plays that will allow him to grow into a solid possession receiver with big play potential due to his size. There are certain nuances he can be taught however you can't teach someone to run, jump or catch with the grace that he is able to do so. Once he figures out how to use those motions to his advantage he will make the leap.

[panthers55]

12 hours ago, GoobyPls said:

He was productive here cause he got the most targets, that doesn't mean we have a talented receiving core.

 

And as far as number 1 receivers go, Ginn was near the bottom in terms of yards and catches.

No one said he was a number 1 by talent but he was thrust in that role because of Benjamin going down. But he filled in admirably and was productive catching 44 balls for 739 yards or almost 17 yards a catch.  Pretty impressive  for a guy who was largely written off. This year he will be a 3 or 4 covered by a safety or slot corner. He should have another great year for us although his totals might go down given Benji and Funchess and Olsen will get the majority of the tsrgets

[panthers55]

4 hours ago, GoobyPls said:

Yeah I'm sure dropping 50 yards TD on the regular had nothing to do with his lack of yards.

 

 

And what does all that have to do with NFL rankings? This isn't about who fits who system, it's about ranking receiving cores. Give Cam almost any other receiving core and he most certainly would have put up better numbers

And what does the statement about what Cam would have done with different receivers have to do with this year. The only reason our totals numbers are down is because we run the ball more than most other teams. We ask receivers to do more than just catch the ball. They have to block down field and be complete players. Rankings for WRs have little to do with wins and losses and last time I checked, that was all that mattered.

[Hoenheim]

Just the fact that KB and Olsen playing at the same time hopefully means Funchess, Ginn, Brown will get less coverage from DBs and shred defenses this coming season. 

[GoobyPls]

4 hours ago, panthers55 said:

And what does the statement about what Cam would have done with different receivers have to do with this year. The only reason our totals numbers are down is because we run the ball more than most other teams. We ask receivers to do more than just catch the ball. They have to block down field and be complete players. Rankings for WRs have little to do with wins and losses and last time I checked, that was all that mattered.

It has everything to do with this thread, give Cam the Texans receivers, or  the Bengals receivers or some other middle of the road team and his numbers would have been better.

 

This thread topic isn't about wins and losses its about receiving cores, the Titans and Jags have two of the most  complete receiving cores in the league, yet they were both bottom 5 teams. Sorry when you are top 3 in drops, first in yards lost to drops, first in TD drops, bottom 3 in YAC, you are not a good receiving core PERIOD

 

[panthers55]

On 7/19/2016 at 0:15 AM, GoobyPls said:

It has everything to do with this thread, give Cam the Texans receivers, or  the Bengals receivers or some other middle of the road team and his numbers would have been better.

 

This thread topic isn't about wins and losses its about receiving cores, the Titans and Jags have two of the most  complete receiving cores in the league, yet they were both bottom 5 teams. Sorry when you are top 3 in drops, first in yards lost to drops, first in TD drops, bottom 3 in YAC, you are not a good receiving core PERIOD

 

Comparing receivers is speculative at best given that different teams run different systems. For example you saying that Cam would do better with the Bengals and Texan receivers is highly unlikely given they both run west coast systems while we run a vertical Coryell system. Unless you think you can plug and play different receivers and quarterbacks in different systems with no issues. Because if you do we can stop right now since only one of us has a clue and it wouldn't be you.

And drops are always going to be higher when you are throwing the ball 30 yards down field versus dumping the ball five yards down the field like you do in a WCO so if you are going to compare receivers as least compare them within similar systems.

[GoobyPls]

4 hours ago, panthers55 said:

Comparing receivers is speculative at best given that different teams run different systems. For example you saying that Cam would do better with the Bengals and Texan receivers is highly unlikely given they both run west coast systems while we run a vertical Coryell system. Unless you think you can plug and play different receivers and quarterbacks in different systems with no issues. Because if you do we can stop right now since only one of us has a clue and it wouldn't be you.

And drops are always going to be higher when you are throwing the ball 30 yards down field versus dumping the ball five yards down the field like you do in a WCO so if you are going to compare receivers as least compare them within similar systems.

Receivers aren't quarterbacks they can usually adopt to systems quiets easy. To say Cam wouldn't do better throwing to the likes of AJ Green and DeAndre Hopkins is sacrileges.

 

You are trying everything in your power to credit Ginn for a mediocre season for NFL standards. You are even excusing wide open drops which is the main reason he is a journeyman.