Contract negotiations with Kurt Coleman

[top dawg]

9 minutes ago, ctrcat said:

Could also give up our 6th for Ra'Zahn Howard next week, and try to trade KK and a 3rd to Detroit for Ansah ($5+ mil cap hit this year, $12+ mil next year), who bluffed for whatever reason at taking Butler in the 1st this year.  Might seem far flung but with GMan the price IS the price, all options MUST be considered, and letting KK go for "nothing" would suck.  In the above scenario we'd still have the best DT rotation in football, zero glaring holes heading into 2017 (assuming Coleman is signed), and 5 picks in the first 5 rounds (1-5) next spring.  For the Lions they'd get immediate cap relief, a similarly talented player of the same age, a Midwest guy, and a 2nd day pick.

I would balk at giving up a third, even though we will probably get a comp pick. I'd give them a fourth and/or maybe throw in Philly Brown.

[top dawg]

44 minutes ago, Panther20 said:

KC is 100% worth resigning.  I'd like to see a 3-4 year deal with an option year that belongs to the Panthers. 

If I were KC, I would only accept an option year if it came with a raise (which could include and be contingent upon modest qualifiers to meet throughout the life of the deal) particularly on a four year contract. 

[Nick_81]

1 hour ago, top dawg said:

Oh, I know. But the hope was that the Short deal would get done before the B-list guys. And a sufficient amount of time has passed to get that deal done in my estimation. But, I admit that perhaps I could be giving it a little more importance than warranted. But, I've also seen these types of situations play out before.

The window isn't closed yet.  Remember last season, Cam got his deal done in June.  Then, TD and Olsen.  One huge contract, and two pretty significant ones before Luke.  Negotiations for Luke's extension didn't heat up until mid August, and he signed on Sept. 10th.  I'm not saying it will happen, but there's still a lot of time to negotiate.

[Ricky Spanish]

I'm actually pretty excited to see Kurt at SS this year. SS seems like a better fit for his style of play. He's not as fast as Boston, but he was faster than Harper. He's a solid and willing tackler, but athletic enough to cover WRs/TEs. I hope we lock him up long term. I enjoy having him in our secondary. 

[Norway]

3 hours ago, top dawg said:

Don't know if you know, but you can edit your posts by hitting the edit button near the bottom of the text.

Thanks mate! However, I can't find the edit button, even though I have looked for it earlier as well. I've seen others edit their posts, but I figured that I maybe didn't have the credentials yet.. Or I'm just blind, who knows

[panthers55]

3 hours ago, top dawg said:

Oh, I know. But the hope was that the Short deal would get done before the B-list guys. And a sufficient amount of time has passed to get that deal done in my estimation. But, I admit that perhaps I could be giving it a little more importance than warranted. But, I've also seen these types of situations play out before.

I agree. The fear I have is that Gettleman's success is going to his head and some of his moves like letting Norman go will have to burn us before he takes a different tact.

[ColumbusCounty]

4 hours ago, panthers55 said:

We were going to talk with Coleman despite what happens with KK.  here are the other guys who will be free agents at the end of 2016 who we should be talking with:     http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/2017/carolina-panthers/

   

Teddy Williams = paycut... Although, they are still on first contracts it should be a crime for the running penalty to make more than KK and Klein... REALLY!! 

Back on topic, Coleman wasn't Earl Thomas but I'd like to think he'll be better than Harper in our system @ SS. His INTs may drop a little but Tre has more recovery speed + he's got a chip on his shoulder. If Kurt wants more than 5-6 mil per...let'em go n plug in Marlowe. Take the 5-6 and add it to KK's contract.

Problem is, our db experience level is pretty low without the guy. 

[panthers55]

30 minutes ago, ColumbusCounty said:

Teddy Williams = paycut... Although, they are still on first contracts it should be a crime for the running penalty to make more than KK and Klein... REALLY!! 

Back on topic, Coleman wasn't Earl Thomas but I'd like to think he'll be better than Harper in our system @ SS. His INTs may drop a little but Tre has more recovery speed + he's got a chip on his shoulder. If Kurt wants more than 5-6 mil per...let'em go n plug in Marlowe. Take the 5-6 and add it to KK's contract.

Problem is, our db experience level is pretty low without the guy. 

That assumes we sign KK at all. There is just as good a chance we don't sign anyone who has a great season and is a free agent. Because we have a GM who likes to play tough guy but gets saved when he keeps pulling rabbits out of his hat. While we all sit back waiting to see if his streak continues or we get bitten in the butt.

 

[top dawg]

37 minutes ago, ColumbusCounty said:

Teddy Williams = paycut... Although, they are still on first contracts it should be a crime for the running penalty to make more than KK and Klein... REALLY!! 

Back on topic, Coleman wasn't Earl Thomas but I'd like to think he'll be better than Harper in our system @ SS. His INTs may drop a little but Tre has more recovery speed + he's got a chip on his shoulder. If Kurt wants more than 5-6 mil per...let'em go n plug in Marlowe. Take the 5-6 and add it to KK's contract.

Problem is, our db experience level is pretty low without the guy. 

Plus, he doesn't believe in throwing money around just because he can. I doubt that he'd increase KK's offer by 5-6 mil per year just because he saved it by attrition. 

[top dawg]

1 hour ago, stbugs said:

As for Coleman, I wouldn't mind a cheap 2 year deal. If it isn't cheap and the young guys prove themselves in training camp let him go for compensatory picks. With all that talent needing extensions we are going to need those picks. Glad you can trade them now as we don't need quantity, we can trade up to get quality.

Gettleman's draft strategy lately is pretty clear. We won't trade down from the late first due to the 5th year option (will save us millions on Star, Benjamin, Thompson and Butler). We will trade up to get the guys we want from the 2nd on down and we'd rather get the handful of guys we love than lots of camp bodies. Getting a 3rd for Norman this year and then others in the next few years will help us get top 100 guys we like every year. Keep hitting on late first rounders like we have been and that makes life easier as we lose good/great players to the cap. 

What is "cheap" in your estimation? 

By the way, I think it's somewhat of a pipe dream to think that these young guys in the secondary will prove themselves in/by the end of training camp. They're likely going to have some growing pains well into the season, if not all season.

[CWORS]

19 hours ago, The Huddler said:

The fact that he will play for us for the next two seasons minimum. Why rush and throw a poo ton of money at a guy who is good, but definitely was boosted by his supporting cast. No need to panic and pay out our ass

That's true he could, but if we want him to stay around and be a part of the nucleus of the team then DG should bump up his salary now instead of waiting; by then he will be priced out of DG's salary slot for his position.

[panthers55]

13 hours ago, stbugs said:

If you want to have a heart attack flip the 2017 to 2018 and add in Short/Norwell as likely FAs due to 2017 tag/RFA tag. Remove Benjamin as we will extend the 5th year option. 

I get that you don't like Gettleman but look at your link and 2018 and see why we rescinded Norman. It's not pulling rabbits out of the hat, it's drafting and signing guys that fit your system/have unseen talent and thus are cheaper and drop farther. I don't know if we'll resign Short, but if we don't it will be because he's too expensive for us not that we didn't want to sign him. I'm on my phone so I can't dive into that link while I post but signing Norwell, Turner, Ealy, Boston, Coleman, Stewart, Davis, Johnson and others is not going to be easy if Short and his agent are asking for Cox/Suh money.

I like Gettleman and think he has really turned this franchise around. I was totally on board when he let Smith go and didn't sign guys we couldn't afford due to huge cap problems. While I didn't like it, I totally understood the whole Norman thing although I think he should have worked harder to negotiate with Norman after he rescinded the tag. But I think he was sending a message to players and agents that he was a tough guy which I don't think you have to do. Each negotiation is a separate issue and people can find out you are a tough negotiator when you sit down rather than telling everyone in the media which puts folks off and makes you look like a braggart and makes you have to live up to the reputation. 

My issue with Gettleman is that he told us he wouldn't be bargain basement shopping once we got out of cap hell but honestly other than Cam, Kueckly and precious few others I don't see any changes. As for pulling rabbits out of his hat, it isn't that he doesn't get good people in here but they all mostly worked out which often doesn't happen. We have good coaches and have a good team but I worry that if players keep getting released before their second contract it is hard for players to be.loyal to the team when they don't think the front office is loyal to them even when they deserve it.

So to sum it up, I like Gettleman but worry his success is going to his head and the chemistry and locker room mojo will suffer if he doesn't retain players like KK who I think is the linchpin of the defensive line.

[panthers1234]

3 hours ago, panthers55 said:

I like Gettleman and think he has really turned this franchise around. I was totally on board when he let Smith go and didn't sign guys we couldn't afford due to huge cap problems. While I didn't like it, I totally understood the whole Norman thing although I think he should have worked harder to negotiate with Norman after he rescinded the tag. But I think he was sending a message to players and agents that he was a tough guy which I don't think you have to do. Each negotiation is a separate issue and people can find out you are a tough negotiator when you sit down rather than telling everyone in the media which puts folks off and makes you look like a braggart and makes you have to live up to the reputation. 

My issue with Gettleman is that he told us he wouldn't be bargain basement shopping once we got out of cap hell but honestly other than Cam, Kueckly and precious few others I don't see any changes. As for pulling rabbits out of his hat, it isn't that he doesn't get good people in here but they all mostly worked out which often doesn't happen. We have good coaches and have a good team but I worry that if players keep getting released before their second contract it is hard for players to be.loyal to the team when they don't think the front office is loyal to them even when they deserve it.

So to sum it up, I like Gettleman but worry his success is going to his head and the chemistry and locker room mojo will suffer if he doesn't retain players like KK who I think is the linchpin of the defensive line.

I don't think DG gives a fug about sending a message that he is a tough guy. He is not that kind of person who would do that. He clearly thought that extending other core players was worth more than giving all that money to one player for one year. Keep in mind we extended Oher and Kalil using the money we freed up from Josh. He keeps saying this the ultimate team game so it makes sense to not drop a ton of money on one player and it is position he does not value. Cam + Luke got paid because they are cornerstones for this team for the next decade also top 10 players in the NFL. Josh does not fall into this category. He is thinking ahead and he knows that other contracts will be coming up such as KK, Star, Kelvin, Coleman, etc. Everyone will want to get paid and he is taking a step back now to help the team take 2 steps forward in the future. 

[panthers55]

4 hours ago, stbugs said:

Makes sense. I honestly don't think the success is getting to him. I think he's been this way at his prior teams and done well there as well. His biggest success is his biggest problem. The guys he's drafted have done well and unfortunately need to be extended all at once or they leave. In the 2013/2014 drafts he picked Star, Short, Klein, Benjamin, Ealy, Turner, Boston, Benwickere and Norwell. Throw in FA additions like Coleman and Oher and you have a real hard time cap wise. What if Boston and Ealy have great seasons? I for one and glad that Gettleman is taking some time and realizing that 16+ per year could be Ealy + Boston. Maybe we can afford Short and I hope we can, he was a monster and dominated games by himself. I for one got real excited thinking about a rotation of Star, Short and Butler dominating the inside. 

Lets remember that Gettleman has never been a GM before anywhere.  This is his first gig as a GM.  At the Giants he was the head of pro personnel which was largely a scouting position which is why he is so good at spotting talent.  He didnt negotiate contracts or do many of the things he is doing now.  So with all the success he has had it would be normal for him to get a big head and think he has the formula for success and perhaps get filled with hubris.  Lets be real here, do you think he got anything like the attention and accolades at the Giants as he has here.

The truth is that everyone talks about the cap now as if it would be hard to fit these guys under the cap and it really wouldnt if you remember one thing.  The cap hit on a 4 or 5 year contract is often small in year 1 and sometimes 2 given that the signing bonus serves as the largest majority of the first year salary.  And since the signing bonus is prorated over the life of the contract, a signing bonus of 20 million on a 5 year contract only counts as 4 million toward the cap that year.  So if his first year actual salary is 3 million, for example, his cap hit would be only 7 million even though he received in cash 23 million.  Cam's contract may have averaged 21 million a year but his cap hit in 2015 was  around 14 million and even this year is 19.5 million.  So my point is you can pay KK 14 million a year but his cap hit in 2017 could be as little as 8 or 9 million.  That is the advantage of a long term contract.  If we franchise him for 14 million that is all on the cap hit right away which would cost more up front but obviously saves a signing bonus and no dead money going forward. 

I agree that a from line of Ealy, Star, Butler and Short would be awesome.  With Butler's speed I could see him lining up at the DE spot at times as well.  Imagine Butler and Short lined up next to each other rushing the quarterback on third down.