Thoughts on Gettleman and KK Short...

[thefuzz]

12 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

You love to use extremes to try and prove a point but no one is saying Gettleman should be like Hurney or pay him Suh money.  Those are your words not mine.  I said KK would likely play for top 3 money which is not Suh money which is a ridiculous 19 million a year.  But number 2 money-Dareus,  is 15.8 million and third is Gerald McCoy which is 13.6 million.  Fourth is Atkins at 10.6.  So I think that somewhere between 10.6 and 13.6 is where it should be.  The question is whether low ball Gettleman is offering in that range.  If KK turns down 12-13 million then we should wait until after the season and can tag him for between 13-14 million.  But I dont agree that paying KK 12-13 million a year wont hurt the team long term and will be more likely to assure that the defensive line will be good for the next 5 or 6 years so we can make those cracks at the Lombardi. Particularly when the cap is likely to go up another 10 million between this year and next and we have 30 million of cap room already.  I know not everyone will be under contract but next year our projected cap room will be almost 50 million.  And that assumes no increase and no roll over from this year.  

I'm using the extremes?  You said that you didn't think that DG was even trying to sign KK....that's about as extreme as it gets.  Of course he is trying to sign KK.

We played this little dance with Hurney not too very long ago...the cap was "supposed" to go up, it didn't and it bit us in the behind.  I do agree however that it will go up, but I don't like basing today's contracts on tomorrows hopes.

My entire point, is that we don't know what DG is offering, nor what KK is asking for.

[panthers55]

13 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

I'm using the extremes?  You said that you didn't think that DG was even trying to sign KK....that's about as extreme as it gets.  Of course he is trying to sign KK.

We played this little dance with Hurney not too very long ago...the cap was "supposed" to go up, it didn't and it bit us in the behind.  I do agree however that it will go up, but I don't like basing today's contracts on tomorrows hopes.

My entire point, is that we don't know what DG is offering, nor what KK is asking for.

lets stick to the point here.  No one is saying KK deserves Suh money or that we want Hurney back. What happened with Hurney as the CBA and the TV contract was first instituted is nothing like what we have now.  Every GM bases salaries as a function of the cap either rising or at best staying level.  That is why contracts are almost always backloaded.  So you have no point and no argument.  As for do I know what DG is offering or what KK is asking.  No I dont but we will see and I am sure that someone will report on this over the next 2 weeks.  I am not going to go back and forth until I do know what is going on and I hope I am wrong.  Just like I hoped I was wrong in 2010 when I beat the Richardson drum when he canned all the vets and I predicted we would suffer mightily and we did.  Some of you need everything in black and white and some of us can see trends and issues before others can see them.  Again hopefully I am wrong but I worry that Gettleman's success is filling him with hubris and an inflated sense of his ability.  Why else would you tell the media that agents dont scare you and put on a tough guy attitude when you know it will cause friction with the very people you have to deal with every day.  That is just beating your own drum and bragging unnecessarily. If you want an agent to know that you tell him that in private not public. Agents already knew about his reputation as that world is a very closed and small system.  He said that for the general public not the agents.

[thefuzz]

54 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

lets stick to the point here.  No one is saying KK deserves Suh money or that we want Hurney back. What happened with Hurney as the CBA and the TV contract was first instituted is nothing like what we have now.  Every GM bases salaries as a function of the cap either rising or at best staying level.  That is why contracts are almost always backloaded.  So you have no point and no argument.  As for do I know what DG is offering or what KK is asking.  No I dont but we will see and I am sure that someone will report on this over the next 2 weeks.  I am not going to go back and forth until I do know what is going on and I hope I am wrong.  Just like I hoped I was wrong in 2010 when I beat the Richardson drum when he canned all the vets and I predicted we would suffer mightily and we did.  Some of you need everything in black and white and some of us can see trends and issues before others can see them.  Again hopefully I am wrong but I worry that Gettleman's success is filling him with hubris and an inflated sense of his ability.  Why else would you tell the media that agents dont scare you and put on a tough guy attitude when you know it will cause friction with the very people you have to deal with every day.  That is just beating your own drum and bragging unnecessarily. If you want an agent to know that you tell him that in private not public. Agents already knew about his reputation as that world is a very closed and small system.  He said that for the general public not the agents.

The "point" here is that you said this...which is why I first quoted you... I am not against most of his moves but think he should be working harder to keep KK.  When you have exactly no clue as to how hard or not he is trying to sign KK.

 

[panthers55]

1 hour ago, stbugs said:

On Olsen........

Quality post to this point. After that not so much. But a lot of words for sure. Since this is your second post and is a page long will your fourth post be a book. Start expecting TL/DR. I did force myself to speed read it. Lots of comparisons but often apples to oranges. You went on and on about Olsen and Gronk and misrepresented me. I said Olsen was a more versatile blocker than Gronk having to even line up at fullback to block. I never said Gronk wasn't a good blocker and even said Gronk was a better tight end so you went a long way for nothing

I could go on and on but will just give two more examples. You keep comparing Cox who signed a contract extension with Short and then assume KK gets franchised in 2017 and then signs a 6 year contract which is apple and oranges. I said Cox was 22 months younger and compared them both receiving a 6 year contract this year. If we franchise short next year and don't sign him long-term we will be looking at a shorter contract in 2018 since that will be  2 years from now. Until then you can make few comparisons when they have different circumstances.

Lastly the whole Chris Harris is a red herring. Norman proved that 7 or 8 million was a joke when he got double that 9 months later. All Chris Harris proved is he didn't value himself enough and is underpaid. It hardly says Norman should have taken half of what he got paid. So now you have fuzzy math and fuzzy logic. So I am sure you will respond but do us all a favor. Brevity is a virtue. Don't take my example because I can be long winded enough but you have me beat at least when it comes to volume.

[panthers55]

6 hours ago, stbugs said:

You are good at twisting your responses. You said Gronk isn't asked to block. That's just plain dumb, but now it's he doesn't play fullback. You said Cox was going to turn 26 when Short was 27, hence trying to make it seem like they were only a year apart and that the age doesn't matter. Philly is getting Cox with a much lower (almost 3 years) age risk over the life of his deal. Again, still missing the point like you missed on Olsen's contract.

Also, if we are to pay Short a big contract as you suggest, why wouldn't it be better for DG franchise him? Wouldn't that be the best risk avoidance? You feel like we should pay Short his big extension now and use all that cap space, right? That could be a reallydumb move. Short had a great 2015, why not make sure he's going to do it the next two years? Since you don't know all the cap rules (the pay 89% of cap is based on a rolling 4 years, not every year), we can use the cap rollover to pay Norman's $14M to Short after 2017.

Actually you are the one who responded to my post and did the twisting. The Cox will be 26 while KK is 27 was intentional to demonstrate exactly what you did in your post which is present the facts  acuratelyl but skewed to your own perspective using Apple to orange comparisons. I am glad you see the problem.. Your posts are full of the same kind of logic.  The truth is I didn't miss any of your points, the issue is you use examples which appear related but upon inspection are only tangentially related.  So let's discuss your actual question which is should DG franchise KK. It might makes sense to do that. The negatives are you  have to pay everything up front and if you try and sign him long-term later it costs much more if he has a great year given the general increase in salaries. It depends if you see him as a core player or an expensive rental while you groom someone else.

Am I a cap expert? Good lord no. I actually have a life. That is the point of discussion to point out info here instead of what happens now which is proverbial pissing contests and personal attacks. Was I aware that the 90℅ was a rolling average? Yeah but given this wasn't a pure cap discussion wasn't splitting hairs.   But thanks for the clarification. Here is my question.. Your writing style reminds me of some past posters on here. Are you new to the huddle or is this your latest alt.