Is Kawann Short holding out?

[The Huddler]

12 hours ago, CoastalCat said:

I remember the four years of poo that resulted when we decided to pay everybody. 

I like the current system, even if it makes me nervous from time to time. Everyone is saying pay the man, but none of us have any idea what he's asking for. If a deal doesn't get done, we'll know that one side was being unreasonable. I'm not going to blindly assume that it's the front office every time.

Furthermore, in the last 3 years, I've seen...

-Smitty get cut

-Hardy get cut

-Munnerlyn walk

-Mitchell walk

-Ginn walk...and come back

-LaFell walk

-D-Wills get cut

We went to the friggin' Super Bowl last year. Errrbody calm down. 

Hardy walked

[The Huddler]

Kinda pisses me off that Short is reaping the benifits of playing next to star. Star does all the heavy lifting. Star wont be paid nearly as hansomly. I hope KK realizes that and doesnt go for the money grab. 

 

Edit:

 

and fug stupid ass teams that over inflate the market. fug you jaguars. Seriously, fug you. Piece of sshit franchise. 

[CPF4LIFE]

5 hours ago, thebigcat said:

KK is getting more than Gerald McCoy's 7 year $95 million

Lol...don't know why this is hard to comprehend 

[CPF4LIFE]

Fans expect players to play as the best at there positions but take team friendly deals.

[CPantherKing]

13 hours ago, Nick_81 said:

Why do people keep saying poo like this?  Who are all of these great players we've developed, and let walk?  Seriously, I can name one guy...

Steve Smith, Jordan Gross per Steve Smith debacle, Brandon LaFell, Captain Munnerlyn, Josh Norman, Gary Barnidge, DeAngelo Williams, Jon Beason, and Greg Hardy.

Replaced them with Corey Brown, Nate Chandler, Kelvin Benjamin, Antoine Cason, James Bradberry, Brandon Williams, Cameron Artis Payne, AJ Klein, and Kony Ealy.

With the exception of Kelvin Benjamin, they are all dramatic downgrades and outright failures. There is no arguing that this has degraded the talent on the team with the list above. The Panthers have been carried by veterans since 2013, and every year that declines. Now, the Panthers are carried by a handful of veterans. Those veterans are among the best in the NFL and made that known last season, but how thin can Gettleman make the veteran core of the team that has been carrying the Panthers to victory before it breaks? This team could be so much better and unquestionably dominant with the talent they were set up with during the rebuild of 2011/2012. Instead, they have been held back from realizing their potential of being a dynasty and lost a few years of their window to building that dynasty. Instead they lean on fewer and fewer key players each season to carry them and make the rest of the league stronger with the talent they have developed and allowed to walk.

12 hours ago, Khaki Lackey said:

What figure do you have in mind for what a competent GM should pay KK?

$40 million guarantee; $13-14 million per year.

[KB_fan]

7 hours ago, thebigcat said:

KK is getting more than Gerald McCoy's 7 year $95 million

Can't imagine we'd give KK a 7 year deal.  He's already 27.  5 year deal probably.

[KB_fan]

By the way.... it's quite interesting that KK has gone silent on Twitter recently after being one of the more active twitter users on the team in recent months.

https://twitter.com/kk_mr93

It adds to the curiousness of what's going on.  But at this point, I'm hoping both the no-show at OTAs and the Twitter silence means that there are serious negotiations underway!

[Ricky Spanish]

12 hours ago, Mike said:

1. We currently have roughly $30 million in cap space. That jumps to $54 million next season. 

Our free agents next year include: Kalil (already signed an extension), Oher, Ginn Jr, Johnson, Remmers, Coleman, Addison, Short, Williams, Jones, McClain, Klein, Robinson, Love, Scott, Hill.

From that list obviously the priority would be Kalil and Short - one of which has already signed an extension. There's a few others worth extensions if they earn them this season, like Coleman and Johnson, but the rest are either average players or role players who are replaceable via the draft, free agency, and some wouldn't take up much cap space to re-sign anyway. So yes, we could have afforded to re-sign Norman without skimping on anyone else because even with a $15 million cap hit next season, that still leaves us with $39 million to play with (figure excludes Kalil's extension) to bring back Short and then make any further additions needed. And as you say on point two, Gettleman doesn't go for high priced free agents, so our cap space is primarily for re-signing players and signing bargains. 

2/3. Agreed, he doesn't seem to like high priced free agents and wants to spend sensibly. So far that style has worked for him because he's managed to hit on some bargain free agents like Tedd Ginn (average receiver, but played like the guy the Dolphins wanted when they drafted him) and Michael Oher (average tackle, but played pretty well) for example, and has managed to pull off some excellent draft picks. Likewise, his treatment of players as numbers has worked in his favor. A lot of GMs would have given Ted Ginn a contract extension after his first season, instead Gettleman let him walk because the price got too high. He deserves credit for that, but at the same time, sooner or later you are going to regret letting a player walk away - especially ones as talented and productive as Josh Norman and Kawann Short (I hope he doesn't let him walk). And sooner or later you are going to regret treating a player like a number because you'll make a mistake and let the wrong guy go who can still contribute (eg. Steve Smith), or rub a player the wrong way and they'll walk away rather than deal with you. 

Now so far Gettleman has done a good job for us. He's proven himself to be an excellent evaluator because he's nailed his draft picks and free agent signings. And he's proven himself to be capable of running a tight ship and turning this team from cap hell to being in a good cap situation. So he deserves all the plaudits, however he's also had a fair bit of good fortune go his way. In regards to draft classes: 2013 he hit on 3 out of 5, in 2014 he hit on 5 out of 6; and in 2015 I don't think he's missed on one, but it's too early to tell. That is great success. Likewise, when you pick up an average receiver like Ted Ginn and he plays like the guy the Dolphins wanted when they drafted him, then you know you're having the rub of the green. Sooner or later that run of good drafts and free agent picks will end. 

Likewise, if you want someone to play hardball and not overpay - fine - but letting players walk like Josh Norman is dangerous. Now Gettleman has bet on himself to be able to replace Norman for a fraction of the price it would have cost him to sign Josh Norman to an extension. Furthermore, by not signing Josh Norman to an extension it helps him maintain his reputation of not overpaying or buckling to player/agent demands. So if he handles the Kawann Short situation in the same manner and decides to not overpay him and back himself to be able to replace him for a fraction of the price - fine - but if he lets Kawann walk he will be under heavy fire for that one. At the end of the day, sometimes you have to let players walk. The Seahawks have let players from their elite defense walk and have managed to maintain their elite defense primarily through the draft. Hopefully Gettleman does the same for us. But I still feel that letting Josh Norman walk was the wrong move, and if Kawann Short is the next to leave because Gettleman won't pay out big bucks for an excellent player, then I hope he continues to nail his draft picks and free agent signings, otherwise all this Gettleman praise could turn quite nasty in the very near future. 

 

I agree with the majority of the post, but it seems to be a bit dramatic in the whole "gettleman better be careful letting good players leave" department.

One thing a lot of people don't understand is we simply just CAN'T keep all the talent at cheap prices. It just doesn't work that way. The salary cap is great for parity and competition throughout the league, but it punishes teams who draft well. Over the next few years we will be letting some very good players walk in order to pay another player at a position we hold in higher regard. It's why we let Josh walk. Gettleman isn't just letting his dick swing freely all willy nilly with these FAs. He's calculating the best moves for the team moving forward. 

While I'll miss some of these players when they go, there's just no way to re-sign THAT many All-Pro selections without severely handicapping your team with the cap and other positions of need. 

[KB_fan]

35 minutes ago, Cracka McNasty said:

While I'll miss some of these players when they go, there's just no way to re-sign THAT many All-Pro selections without severely handicapping your team with the cap and other positions of need. 

Sad but true.

At least for now we've got the following All Pro's  locked in for a few more years:  Cam, Luke, TD, Greg, Kalil.  Hopefully we'll be adding KK to that list very soon.  This list of long-term signed talent has got to make us the envy of most teams in the league.

And hopefully we've got a few more young up-and-coming stars in the likes of KB, Ealy, Turner, Shaq who are waiting in the wings / pounding on the door and soon to have All Pro seasons.

[CoastalCat]

13 hours ago, Mike said:

1. We currently have roughly $30 million in cap space. That jumps to $54 million next season. 

Our free agents next year include: Kalil (already signed an extension), Oher, Ginn Jr, Johnson, Remmers, Coleman, Addison, Short, Williams, Jones, McClain, Klein, Robinson, Love, Scott, Hill.

2/3. And sooner or later you are going to regret treating a player like a number because you'll make a mistake and let the wrong guy go who can still contribute (eg. Steve Smith), or rub a player the wrong way and they'll walk away rather than deal with you. 

So he deserves all the plaudits, however he's also had a fair bit of good fortune go his way. In regards to draft classes: 2013 he hit on 3 out of 5, in 2014 he hit on 5 out of 6; and in 2015 I don't think he's missed on one, but it's too early to tell.  

 

 

I agree with most of this. I will say that you can't always anticipate when (not just contract years) a player might hold out over their contract (see Kam Chancellor).

Also don't necessarily regret letting Steve go. I don't think it was a coincidence that almost no receivers brought in after Smitty developed into much. 

Finally, only time will tell whether the talent that has been brought in is "good fortune", but I'm not going to automatically assume that when the players that our talent scouts bring in (as pretty much their only job) end up good, that it's just good luck. That's like saying that your top salesman has been lucky with the last few deals, rather than good at his job. It might be luck, but gotta give him the benefit of the doubt. Injury is, of course, another story.

With all that being said, we still don't know the numbers that are being thrown around. KK could want $20m per year for all we know, or DG could be offering $2m. Or it could be somewhere in between. Without that knowledge, we don't really know who, if anyone, is being unreasonable.  

[caatfan]

1 hour ago, Cracka McNasty said:

He's calculating the best moves for the team moving forward. 

The goal is to avoid crashing and burning down the road, and having to rebuild. That said, KK is more likely to get top $ for his position than a not so young anymore CB. I just hope he's not set on being the highest paid DT in the league.

[Nick_81]

3 hours ago, CPantherKing said:

Steve Smith, Jordan Gross per Steve Smith debacle, Brandon LaFell, Captain Munnerlyn, Josh Norman, Gary Barnidge, DeAngelo Williams, Jon Beason, and Greg Hardy.

Replaced them with Corey Brown, Nate Chandler, Kelvin Benjamin, Antoine Cason, James Bradberry, Brandon Williams, Cameron Artis Payne, AJ Klein, and Kony Ealy.

With the exception of Kelvin Benjamin, they are all dramatic downgrades and outright failures. There is no arguing that this has degraded the talent on the team with the list above. The Panthers have been carried by veterans since 2013, and every year that declines. Now, the Panthers are carried by a handful of veterans. Those veterans are among the best in the NFL and made that known last season, but how thin can Gettleman make the veteran core of the team that has been carrying the Panthers to victory before it breaks? This team could be so much better and unquestionably dominant with the talent they were set up with during the rebuild of 2011/2012. Instead, they have been held back from realizing their potential of being a dynasty and lost a few years of their window to building that dynasty. Instead they lean on fewer and fewer key players each season to carry them and make the rest of the league stronger with the talent they have developed and allowed to walk.

• Smitty played here for 13 fuging years.  That's not developing talent and letting them walk.  
• Your theory on Gross is nothing but pure speculation on your part, and pretty stupid, considering Kalil is his best friend, so if anyone would influence him to retire, or stay, it would be Kalil.  
• LaFell is average at best, no loss at all.  
• Munnerlyn wasn't wanted here, or they would have at least made some kind of offer.  
• Barnidge is average, no loss.  Christ, the guy had one good year at 30 years old, and six shitty ones prior...
• D-Will was here 9 years, same situation as Smitty, and both of those as examples is beyond stupid.  
• Beason?  ROFL, I can't believe you're serious.  The guy hasn't played a full season since 2010.  He was a boss for 4 years, then couldn't keep from getting injured, and we still kept him on the roster until 2013.  
• Finally, the fuging gold in this post is Greg fuging Hardy, wow.  You truly have to be off your rocker to even consider that.

All the other bullshit you're spewing is just a waste of time.  You're so fuging delusional...

[therealmjl]

6 minutes ago, Nick_81 said:

• Smitty played here for 13 fuging years.  That's not developing talent and letting them walk.  
• Your theory on Gross is nothing but pure speculation on your part, and pretty stupid, considering Kalil is his best friend, so if anyone would influence him to retire, or stay, it would be Kalil.  
• LaFell is average at best, no loss at all.  
• Munnerlyn wasn't wanted here, or they would have at least made some kind of offer.  
• Barnidge is average, no loss.  Christ, the guy had one good year at 30 years old, and six shitty ones prior...
• D-Will was here 9 years, same situation as Smitty, and both of those as examples is beyond stupid.  
• Beason?  ROFL, I can't believe you're serious.  The guy hasn't played a full season since 2010.  He was a boss for 4 years, then couldn't keep from getting injured, and we still kept him on the roster until 2013.  
• Finally, the fuging gold in this post is Greg fuging Hardy, wow.  You truly have to be off your rocker to even consider that.

All the other bullshit you're spewing is just a waste of time.  You're so fuging delusional...

Bahahahahaha that guy is a clown 

[Nick_81]

5 minutes ago, mjligon said:

Bahahahahaha that guy is a clown 

Yeah, and I probably burned up a good 3 minutes, feeding a troll...