A Josh Norman holdout looming?

[MHS831]

Have not read the entire thread, so excuse me if this obvious statement has been stated and repeated--

Gettlemen needs to sign a CB in free agency and draft one.  Leverage, but we will need 2 anyway.  That sounded better in my head.

[MHS831]

One more thought

Are there people on this board who think a long-term (4 years) deal would be a mistake?

I feel that he is peaking--and he wants elite money for 4 years--I am guessing around $55 million. If we can get one year--perhaps his best year at 28---and turn him loose at age 29, we can say we would not be paying top dollar for a 32-33 year old CB.  Just a thought, but this is a business.  We never have paid a premium for CBs--we are invested in the front 7.

I hate to lose him, but if he wants to get filthy rich, he may be talking to the wrong GM

Finally, if you look at Norman's rise to prominence, it is directly related to the rise in prominence of the DL.  Coincidence?  Not saying he is not great, but I am saying he could not be as elite as he thinks he is..

[SIGCHI222]

Josh...don't dance with the devil in the pale moonlight.  It won't end well. 

Gettleman is not going to fold, not going to happen.

Take the 30 to 40 million and win the next 2 SB's.

[GoobyPls]

7 hours ago, MHS831 said:

One more thought

Are there people on this board who think a long-term (4 years) deal would be a mistake?

I feel that he is peaking--and he wants elite money for 4 years--I am guessing around $55 million. If we can get one year--perhaps his best year at 28---and turn him loose at age 29, we can say we would not be paying top dollar for a 32-33 year old CB.  Just a thought, but this is a business.  We never have paid a premium for CBs--we are invested in the front 7.

I hate to lose him, but if he wants to get filthy rich, he may be talking to the wrong GM

Finally, if you look at Norman's rise to prominence, it is directly related to the rise in prominence of the DL.  Coincidence?  Not saying he is not great, but I am saying he could not be as elite as he thinks he is..

Do you have amnesia? Our pass rush was terrible for the first half the season, we went 3 games without a legit sack. Norman still shut down his side of the field.

 

In all honesty I would rather resign Norman over any  D linemen. Finding a lockdown corner is damn near impossible in today's game. 

There are only 3 guys in the nfl considered shutdown corners and Norman is one of them

[chknwing]

not sure if this had been posted but he is an interview with Norman.  He is directly asked about holding out.  It was clear to me that hes just really optimistic they can work out a long term deal with him.  however he did kind of side step the question but did state if hes there for otas or not he still going to be preparing himself for the season.

 

http://www.wccbcharlotte.com/video/josh-norman-talks-contract-holdout-running-with-the-bulls/

[Jeremy Igo]

1 hour ago, chknwing said:

not sure if this had been posted but he is an interview with Norman.  He is directly asked about holding out.  It was clear to me that hes just really optimistic they can work out a long term deal with him.  however he did kind of side step the question but did state if hes there for otas or not he still going to be preparing himself for the season.

 

http://www.wccbcharlotte.com/video/josh-norman-talks-contract-holdout-running-with-the-bulls/

Sounds perfectly in line with my OP. 

[Woodie]

The threat of a holdout is really the only leverage Norman has.  Nobody's going to offer him a monster contract and give up two first round picks for him...he knows it and the team knows it.  Therefore, the only threat to the team is if he holds out.  So, he doesn't want to state absolutely that he won't do it.  He has to at least maintain the possibility that he might hold out, otherwise there is no reason for Gettleman up his offer.   

 

[CarolinaNCSU]

15 hours ago, Panthers8969 said:

And chances are neither of those picks would play as well as norman. I don't understand the people that want to trade him for picks. 

 

I want Norman here, but if somebody offered even a 1st rounder? Fax it in.

 

Why? You're not only getting that pick, you're getting that cap space. Just say Norman ended up with a 3 year, 45 million dollar deal. Now you're telling me I can have 15 million extra in cap space for the next 3 years, plus another 1st rounder?  Easy decision to me with the options it presents. You lock up younger guys here, go shopping for FA's, grab a highly rated rookie for "free" with the extra pick, or could pull off a trade if need be. I love Norman and want him here...but if the right trade was ever offered, there are only a few guys on the roster that aren't on the trade block.  Norman ain't one of 'em.

[ctrcat]

4 hours ago, CarolinaNCSU said:

 

I want Norman here, but if somebody offered even a 1st rounder? Fax it in.

 

Why? You're not only getting that pick, you're getting that cap space. Just say Norman ended up with a 3 year, 45 million dollar deal. Now you're telling me I can have 15 million extra in cap space for the next 3 years, plus another 1st rounder?  Easy decision to me with the options it presents. You lock up younger guys here, go shopping for FA's, grab a highly rated rookie for "free" with the extra pick, or could pull off a trade if need be. I love Norman and want him here...but if the right trade was ever offered, there are only a few guys on the roster that aren't on the trade block.  Norman ain't one of 'em.

I've always said the starting point in negotiations should be the #13 overall PLUS a conditional 3rd/4th, because that's exactly what Revis fetched at the same age, not to mention the gargantuan contract.  That's why Cleveland, Jax, Miami, Oakland, and San Fran come to mind.  The reality is that just because we don't strike the mother lode like that doesn't mean it's a bad deal if we take slightly less.  Indy/Grigson may give us their first.  They appear to have some cap room and are of course dumbasses, never mind their QB is about to be richer than Scrooge McDuck.  I would not take any less than a 1st however.  Hard to imagine there wouldn't be a taker in that group but if not let the man play on the tag and let the chips fall where they may.

Edited March 23, 2016 by ctrcat

[MHS831]

7 hours ago, GoobyPls said:

Do you have amnesia? Our pass rush was terrible for the first half the season, we went 3 games without a legit sack. Norman still shut down his side of the field.

 

In all honesty I would rather resign Norman over any  D linemen. Finding a lockdown corner is damn near impossible in today's game. 

There are only 3 guys in the nfl considered shutdown corners and Norman is one of them

 

Our defense, by design, needs studs up front.  If we have to pay $13m per season for a CB, we are not doing it right up front.  It is not about talent, it is about resource allocation. You would sign Norman long term and let Short or KK walk?  Not me.  Before KK and Short, when was the last time we had a decent DT?  Jenkins?  He was drafted before Hurney was here.  We are where we are because of our stout front 4 supported by some of the best LBs in football.  Norman is the beneficiary of that.

I see your point, but paying an elite player on the brink of decline top dollars for 4 years or so is not what I would do. 

[GoobyPls]

4 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

 

Our defense, by design, needs studs up front.  If we have to pay $13m per season for a CB, we are not doing it right up front.  It is not about talent, it is about resource allocation. You would sign Norman long term and let Short or KK walk?  Not me.  Before KK and Short, when was the last time we had a decent DT?  Jenkins?  He was drafted before Hurney was here.  We are where we are because of our stout front 4 supported by some of the best LBs in football.  Norman is the beneficiary of that.

I see your point, but paying an elite player on the brink of decline top dollars for 4 years or so is not what I would do. 

Brink of Decline? If you can see the future please tell me the lotto numbers.

 

Norman is just starting to peak, there have been plenty of CB who have played at an all pro level after their 30s. You can strongly make a case our back 7 were the ones holding this defense together  , outside of Short our front four was mediocre for the majority of the season. 

 

And yes if Star continues to suffer injury after injury and getting off to slow starts I would be willing to part ways to keep Norman.

 

FYI We can always reconstruct Normans contract as the years pass

[MHS831]

1 hour ago, GoobyPls said:

Brink of Decline? If you can see the future please tell me the lotto numbers.

 

Norman is just starting to peak, there have been plenty of CB who have played at an all pro level after their 30s. You can strongly make a case our back 7 were the ones holding this defense together  , outside of Short our front four was mediocre for the majority of the season. 

 

And yes if Star continues to suffer injury after injury and getting off to slow starts I would be willing to part ways to keep Norman.

 

FYI We can always reconstruct Normans contract as the years pass

Why do you have to start every post with a smartass, misinformed comment?  I can see the future---we all get older.  Not a newsflash.  Damn, son. 

NOT giving him a deal based on the majority of CBs over 30 is playing the odds--not predicting the future.  Giving him a deal at top dollar because a few elite CBs have played into their 30s IS predicting the future--wise up.

 

 

Edited March 23, 2016 by MHS831

[ThPantherFan]

If a player holds out, I would let him go.  A hold out tells me he isn't interested in playing for the team.  I think a player should be paid his due, but holding out isn't acceptable, in my opinion.

[Ship]

4 hours ago, ThPantherFan said:

If a player holds out, I would let him go.  A hold out tells me he isn't interested in playing for the team.  I think a player should be paid his due, but holding out isn't acceptable, in my opinion.

I agree. If he holds out into training camp I would bench him and keep him away from the locker room for the season. I'd basically make him take a Greg Hardy leave of absence for the season and let him dry up on his own. Even if he comes back, it would (1) be a distraction to the team and potentially stir the pot with other players who may want more money or a new deal, (2) missing TC means he missed valuable time with the team building chemistry and getting into game shape-- look at Kam Chancellor last year. I also think if a player wants to take it to the brink then we should really take him to the brink and let his ass sit out alone.

I recently watched the 85 Bears doc on Netflix and the aftermath of that season has me worried for us-- it happens to every successful team. In this case it isn't Ron pulling a Ditka (though he is getting a lot of awards and speaking engagements), but how many times have we seen Josh Norman on TV doing little interviews? Why is he even on there? It's just marketing and me first and unrealistic expectations of how much money he should make. Same way Hardy came on here with his coat drive around the time he wanted a new deal. Whether you want to admit it or not and whether you know Josh and think he's a good person-- to some degree it still has to do with marketing and making yourself seem like a huge part of the team and fan base.

Hold outs suck and I want no part of that on our team. I hope they negotiate up until the day before camp and then if there isn't a deal, Josh signs and is on time to camp, where they can still work on a deal.