Is Rivera cutthroat enough to make the tough decisions?

[tukafan21]

Just now, Seltzer said:

Control C, Control V, a million times over.  This isn't early 2013.  Ron is easily a top 5 coach at this point.  Perspective people

And as I've said, Cam is the MVP and needs to improve, Luke is obviously a top 5 defender, and needs to improve.

There isn't a single player or coach in any professional sport that doesn't need to improve in some area, it would be insane to think otherwise.

I guarantee if you were to ask Rivera right now, do you have anything you need to improve upon as a coach for next year and I'll bet he'd rattle off a list much longer than anyone on here would come up with.

[tukafan21]

2 minutes ago, CCS said:

I bet their eyes bleed too. 

No, this would make eyes bleed if trying to read on a phone....

I don't think that's a tough decision when Kuechly was the guy replacing him.  I think playing CJ and/or Allen over Ealy was a big mistake, Ealy had been balling out of control while CJ was injured and then seemed to disappear back into the fog once CJ came back.  There are things Cam needs to improve upon as well, and dude was just named MVP.  Everyone looks at someone criticizing their team as not being a true fan or just being a sourpuss, but that's just life, you constantly need to improve.

For example, I'm a University of Arizona alum and die hard basketball fan.  A few years back when we were undefeated 20 games into the season, we had our issues, but anytime someone brought them up, the majority responded with, "we're undefeated, shut up and enjoy it".  Well yes, it was nice to be undefeated and we were enjoying it.  But being undefeated through 20 games isn't going to help you win game #21, if you have an issue, you have an issue, regardless of your ability to rise above it previously.  I want to get better each and every play, every game, every season.

Even if we won the game on Sunday, I'd still worry about some gameday decisions moving forward because it's been an issue in the past, one that we have mostly been able to overcome.  But to rest on your laurels and not want to improve, regardless of past accomplishments, is a loser mentality IMHO.

[PhillyB]

the kony ealy we saw in the super bowl was not the same kony ealy in training camp. rivera and the staff have coached him into the player he's become, and part of that coaching involved strategic use of reps.

not an issue for me... at least not with kony.

[tukafan21]

4 minutes ago, CCS said:

I bet their eyes bleed too. 

I literally have multiple forums with over 10,000 posts on each, and this is the first time anyone has ever called me out on not using proper paragraphs, yet I've many times seen people called out for not using the "enter" button because it's a pain to read on small screens.

[NanuqoftheNorth]

We occasionally see young players showing flashes of brilliance when they are given their limited opportunities subbing for starters.  Coaches see a lot more than that on a daily basis.  Who has a better perspective on what these players are capable of doing?

I'll trust Ron and his staff over fans with limited knowledge.

[ok2h8pep]

This is enough to make me happy with Rivera :  Losing record in regular season in 3 out of 4 seasons - and he never lost the locker room.   These guys will play for him.  I'm sure at some point that will no longer be true and that's when I would move on from him.

I would prefer a coach that is the smartest guy in the room (and Ron is not that guy) but we've got that in a GM, so it works.

[tukafan21]

1 minute ago, NanuqoftheNorth said:

We occasionally see young players showing flashes of brilliance when they are given their limited opportunities subbing for starters.  Coaches see a lot more than that on a daily basis.  Who has a better perspective on what these players are capable of doing?

I'll trust Ron and his staff over fans with limited knowledge.

Do you really care what a player does in practice? 

There have been lots of instances in sports where some players aren't great practice players but are able to turn it on come gameday.

All I know is Kony was performing on Sundays while CJ was out, then CJ came back and did not perform, and Kony then disappeared as well.

It was something at the time lots of posters on here talked about and it's a big reason people want CJ just cut as opposed to re-structure his deal and keep him around.

But this is my point, Ron is a loyal guy, he rewards veterans, and probably rewards guys who perform Monday to Saturday in practice, it's the type of guy he is.

Which is the initial point of my thread, is he able to make the tough decisions on gameday?

I'm not saying I want him to be fired over this or any other reason, I'm just saying I think it's something he needs to improve upon.

And let me help those our who will want to say this, I'll say it for you...... "But oh no, he was coach of the year, TWICE!  Why would he have to improve anything?"

[tukafan21]

5 minutes ago, ok2h8pep said:

This is enough to make me happy with Rivera :  Losing record in regular season in 3 out of 4 seasons - and he never lost the locker room.   These guys will play for him.  I'm sure at some point that will no longer be true and that's when I would move on from him.

I would prefer a coach that is the smartest guy in the room (and Ron is not that guy) but we've got that in a GM, so it works.

This post is my point exactly.

He never lost the locker room and the players will run through walls for him.  But that loyalty has also hurt the team at times before, maybe it didn't cost us the game in the SB, and maybe it didn't cost us any losses this season in particular.

But that doesn't mean it's not an area that needs to be improved upon.

Rivera strikes me as a guy who will look at this past season and be supremely happy at everything outside of the result of the last game, that in addition to his fierce loyalty gives me enough reason to at least pause and ponder whether or not he can or better yet will, make some tough calls to change things that may not have cost us games this year, but COULD potentially cost us a game in the future if changes aren't made.

That was the point with my reference to the Arizona basketball team a few years back, yes things have worked out for us up until now, but that doesn't mean it will continue to be that way without some changes.

[the_philosopher]

43 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

Didn't he start 7 rookies last year in a playoff game??

Didn't he start Newton as a rookie along with Keuchly and a slew of other guys. That criticism is simply one more wrong perception by casual fans who have no clue what they are talking about.

I remember this whole debate last offseason, and I never found the rookie-playing argument persuasive. Yes, we played rookies down the stretch last year but that was only AFTER the consistently bad play of guys forced the coach's hand. Some of our starters were so bad, they got cut midseason (Decoud, Cason if I remember correctly). And I love Coach Rivera, but you don't really get credit for starting 1st round picks like Newton, Kuechly, and Benjamin.

Put me down as a fan who thinks Rivera is still too slow in putting veterans on the bench. The playing time this year of Harper over Boston and ANYONE over Kony Ealy is ample evidence for me.

[tukafan21]

Just now, the_philosopher said:

I remember this whole debate last offseason, and I never found the rookie-playing argument persuasive. Yes, we played rookies down the stretch last year but that was only AFTER the consistently bad play of guys forced the coach's hand. Some of our starters were so bad, they got cut midseason (Decoud, Cason if I remember correctly). And I love Coach Rivera, but you don't really get credit for starting 1st round picks like Newton, Kuechly, and Benjamin.

Put me down as a fan who thinks Rivera is still too slow in putting veterans on the bench. The playing time this year of Harper over Boston and ANYONE over Kony Ealy is ample evidence for me.

WOAH WOAH WOAH THERE!!!!!

Now I get it, he was TERRIBLE for us last year, but I'd love to still have him on this team (I'm probably the only Panthers fan in the world who wishes that though)

But to be fair, dude was an unbelievable player in college, was one of the two CB's named to SI's All-Decade team for the 2000's, and we were both freshman at Arizona in 2004, and his pick 6 to seal a major upset of UCLA on year is still my all time favorite sports in-person viewing memory, so I'll always have a soft spot for Cason.

Having said that, I do agree with the rest of your post, hahaha

[top dawg]

I honestly think that Rivera plays the guys that he thinks give us the best chance to win. We aren't necessarily cognizant of all the nuances of a position (like taking a guy's experience,  motor, conditioning, blocking, etc.) into account as much as the coaches who must take these things into account as it speaks directly to their job performance. 

You really can't argue with his results. 

[KB_fan]

Interestingly enough, both Ron & Dave G today talked about Kony's development.  Seems like Dave has been cool with Ron holding him back a bit so that he can learn to be coachable.  They're both very excited at how he's balling out and been responding this season, but it's clear they both thought he needed time.

Agree with the comment above about the kind of good cop / bad cop routine Ron & Dave have going.  Dave will make tough business decisions with his head - he has a clear plan, philosophy and detailed methodical quantitative evaluation.  Ron indeed oozes loyalty towards his guys.  But Ron HAS played & started rookies more than any coach in Carolina's history.  (And not just the Cams & Lukes... but also the Philly Browns, the Andrew Norwells, the Trai Turners, the Benes...)

I know it's easy to sit on the couch and think that sometimes he's started them later than warranted.  But I think both Ron & Dave stressed today the importance of player development and trust in coaching.  It's not just about pure skills, but about the relationship between players & coaches, and that takes some time.  So, ideally, when circumstances permit, I think both Ron & Dave would be agreed that whenever possible it's good to have the young guys get some time to mature in the system before you start them - better for the long-term health of the team.

 

[Jmac]

Maybe not...but D.G is. 

[panthers55]

7 minutes ago, the_philosopher said:

I remember this whole debate last offseason, and I never found the rookie-playing argument persuasive. Yes, we played rookies down the stretch last year but that was only AFTER the consistently bad play of guys forced the coach's hand. Some of our starters were so bad, they got cut midseason (Decoud, Cason if I remember correctly). And I love Coach Rivera, but you don't really get credit for starting 1st round picks like Newton, Kuechly, and Benjamin.

Put me down as a fan who thinks Rivera is still too slow in putting veterans on the bench. The playing time this year of Harper over Boston and ANYONE over Kony Ealy is ample evidence for me.

The reason we don't play rookies until later in the year or often until their sophomore year is simple. This offense and defense is complicated to master and requires players to know where to be on every play or we give up a big play. Veterans simply understand the ins and outs of football better and make a quicker adjustment. Vets who have played in the system make fewer mistakes generally.  Rookies play when they show they have better skill and understand the system better. That is why so many rookies played at the end of the season last year. It wasn't just due to injury but they weren't ready until then. Not complicated to understand.