The new Brady vs. Manning

[FootballMaestro]

22 minutes ago, Ivan The Awesome said:

Russell is so freaking lucky outside the pocket. I'm not even sure if its luck or skill now. The line has been blurred. With that throw when they fumbled the snap....I was thinking. Damn it's over for them. All of a sudden he heaves the ball opposite the way he's going and turning his body around...and someone catches it..its like..wtf man?

 

Newton has grown into a better QB, the scary part is that he's not done growing. He's not even reached his ceiling yet. That's definitely scary. Russell may have the hardware for the time being but we'll look back and see that this rivalry will be that of Champions..

Think about this.

If Tyler Lockett wasn't open, that pass is not caught.

There is no play if Lockett's not open.

So the credit has to go to Lockett for getting open (or the blame to the Minny defense) as well as Wilson!

But that's not how the hype machine works.

Seattle's offense did nothing all game.

 

[FootballMaestro]

4 minutes ago, TheRumGone said:

Excuse some posters who have an agenda and get butthurt if someone compares to Cam in some way. Posters in here need to realize just how devestatingly cold it was yesterday. That isn't to say Seattle did not get lucky because they did, but if any athlete has played in temps like that and thinks an offense is going to light up the score board then they are lying and haven't played in cold weather. That was not the norm for seattles offense the past 8 weeks or so. Anyone can point to the Rams game and then anyone can point to the ATL game for us.

Talk poo all you want about RW being a scrambler, lucky, whatever. He gets it done and I fuging hate him for that. But he has shown this season he can make plays from the pocket. Before this year? Not so much.

This is going to be a tough game but I'm confident the NFL MVP can get it done and I'm confident our defense can make plays to stop them. Yalls time is over.

They're a lot of people here who feel Wilson's overrated (whether they feel he's good or not).

It's not about Cam entirely.

Just cause you like him, and are a NC fan. Great. But that doesn't mean you have to kiss the ass of Seattle fans spouting "stats" on this site. You're just as bad them, or the people you criticize and apologize for that matter. Most of them are idiots, if you read the drivel they write.

I'm judging Wilson strictly on his pocket ability. Nothing else.

I never said he wasn't a good Qb.

But you have to acknowledge, if he didn't play for the team he does he wouldn't get the accolades or recognition he does. Yesterday he played awful and did nothing. And now he's being celebrated for winning a game 10-9, where Minny gifted most of the games biggest plays for them.

The bottom line is. Wilson's better outside the pocket, than he is inside the pocket. And the a fact.

However, when Wilson plays poorly (especially from inside the pocket), as long as he wins he's celebrated when other QB's would be criticized.

Bottom line: It's fair to say he's not as polished from the pocket. And it's true.

Plus: Luck and Newton are actually more comparable regarding size, playing style and resume. But of course they don't play in the same conference or play each other often enough.

[TheRumGone]

6 minutes ago, FootballMaestro said:

They're a lot of people here who feel Wilson's overrated (whether they feel he's good or not).

It's not about Cam entirely.

Just cause you like him, and are a NC fan. Great. But that doesn't mean you have to kiss the ass of Seattle fans spouting "stats" on this site. You're just as bad them, or the people you criticize and apologize for that matter. Most of them are idiots, if you read the drivel they write.

I'm judging Wilson strictly on his pocket ability. Nothing else.

I never said he wasn't a good Qb.

But you have to acknowledge, if he didn't play for the team he does he wouldn't get the accolades or recognition he does. Yesterday he played awful and did nothing. And now he's being celebrated for winning a game 10-9, where Minny gifted most of the games biggest plays for them.

The bottom line is. Wilson's better outside the pocket, than he is inside the pocket. And the a fact.

However, when Wilson plays poorly (especially from inside the pocket), as long as he wins he's celebrated when other QB's would be criticized.

Bottom line: It's fair to say he's not as polished from the pocket. And it's true.

Plus: Luck and Newton are actually more comparable regarding size, playing style and resume. But of course they don't play in the same conference or play each other often enough.

I don't really like him after his water Ciara and God comments. Honestly that was creepy as hell. And I'm not a state fan. Wilsons 1 read or 2 reads is partly because of an o line issue. That oline was nearly as bad as cams at the beginning of last year until they made some changes and started running more 3 receiver sets. Wilson is not nearly as refined as cam in the pocket. That's not even a question with how Cam walks up to the line reads the defense and audibles and reads the field sideline to sideline. 

But that last game is not indicative of RWs season. He can beat you from the pocket wether it's his first second or third read. He has shown that ability on a consistent basis notwithstanding the tundra game yesterday. You could see how much the ball was affected in the air and people in the game day threads were like "hahahahaha another duck from Wilson!" As if that's the norm. It's not. 

I loathe the Seahawks and I wanna crush them so their fanbase can stfu but I'm not gonna sit here and act like RW is some scrub who "runs around like a hamster" and throws up prayers all the time. It happens with him but that's not his entire game.

i like talking honest football when game days have subsided and my rage for the Seahawks goes down a bit and I have a clear head. They are a lucky team in big moments maybe the luckiest team I have ever seen in my 20 years of watching football but that isn't the full picture.

[FootballMaestro]

28 minutes ago, TheRumGone said:

I don't really like him after his water Ciara and God comments. Honestly that was creepy as hell. And I'm not a state fan. Wilsons 1 read or 2 reads is partly because of an o line issue. That oline was nearly as bad as cams at the beginning of last year until they made some changes and started running more 3 receiver sets. Wilson is not nearly as refined as cam in the pocket. That's not even a question with how Cam walks up to the line reads the defense and audibles and reads the field sideline to sideline. 

But that last game is not indicative of RWs season. He can beat you from the pocket wether it's his first second or third read. He has shown that ability on a consistent basis notwithstanding the tundra game yesterday. You could see how much the ball was affected in the air and people in the game day threads were like "hahahahaha another duck from Wilson!" As if that's the norm. It's not. 

I loathe the Seahawks and I wanna crush them so their fanbase can stfu but I'm not gonna sit here and act like RW is some scrub who "runs around like a hamster" and throws up prayers all the time. It happens with him but that's not his entire game.

i like talking honest football when game days have subsided and my rage for the Seahawks goes down a bit and I have a clear head. They are a lucky team in big moments maybe the luckiest team I have ever seen in my 20 years of watching football but that isn't the full picture.

Good post.

I didn't mean to come off as dismissive (if I did). But I think you may understand where I'm coming from as well? LOL

Between the Circa 2012 Seattle fans; the media, Carroll, and the luck/hype of that team and it's QB, we're almost compelled to want to point out their flaws, contradictions. LOL

Wilson's got great moxie. And he's a very good NFL QB. 

He can read a defense if he has both space and time. Yes. However, if the pass rush comes quick, and he can't get the ball out quickly, he will more times than often run. And besides the reasons you mentioned, I think it's also because he can't always see over the defense post snap. This is why many times he has to roll out in order to see or buy time.  Do you buy that in any fashion (or even a bit)? That's part of what I'm talking about. 

Yes their OL was shaky this year. But Wilson contributed to that as well IMO. Do you agree?

This was because he was running and holding the ball and eventually getting sacked. In the past when he ran, he more likely got the throw off-as you mentioned-cause (yes) the OL held the defense off longer as you're saying.

However, earlier in the year-he was getting sacked. So people blamed it on the OL (rightfully so). But Russell wasn't reading the defense properly; not getting rid of the ball as well as he could. Some folks noticed this to. That's why Seattle fans were criticizing him. Yes, Cam scrambles sometimes with a pass rush. But he's also learned to spot the open guy and let it fly (or at least try) from the pocket. This is why he doesn't do it nearly as often as Wilson IMO (scramble). They're times when you watch Wilson play where he rolls out and/or scrambles almost exclusively. That tells me, he's having trouble from the pocket (or at least it's easier for him; more comfortable to be successful from there). And that's what I'm talking about.

In response/as I mentioned; they started having him get rid of the ball quickly (ala RG3 and Kaep). He was highly successful with that during his hot streak. However, as of late, he's been rolling out again, or just all out scrambling and not being patient in the pocket IMO. 

And as you acknowledged, he can't read a defense like Cam. Nonetheless, so many in the media, don't know that, or some of the things we're discussing (or you said). That's what can be so annoying. And this is why you may see post like mine and other people. LOL. So I'm sorry if I appeared overtly dismissive at times. But it's just hyperbole to knock off the more recent bandwagon interlopers or to make a strident point about the normally idiot media.You know that.

Nonetheless, you explained your position well. I hope I did mine?

Thanks

 

[TXHawk]

1 hour ago, FootballMaestro said:

I love how Seattle fans talk about stats.

RG3 and Kaepernick had great stats as well. But neither could throw from the pocket well or read defenses, outside of quick one read throws (as Wilson for a large part).

First of all: If you look at "stats" many of Wilson's TD's are not actually from the pocket. They're out of the pocket when he rolls out. So stop with the nonsense.

During his recent hot streak when he did throw from the pocket, the ball was out of his hands quick. That's how Seattle designed it. Earlier in the year, when he tried to stay in the pocket and held on to the ball too long, he was getting sacked a lot. You know that.

So is Wilson a good QB, particularly in Seattle's scheme? Yes he his. No argument there.

However, he's not a pocket QB to say the least. He's too small. He needs to get the ball out quick. And if his first and second receiver are covered, he will more likely run. Drew Brees is short to. But he's figured out how to shift his feet and look between the creases of the OL and defenses. Russell rolls out to buy time and to see. Those are just the facts.

Yesterday's game was a prime example. Wilson did entirely nothing during the entire game from the pocket (no crappy defense and on the road). And the minor success he had during the game was outside of it (busted Tyler Locket play and the ensuing TD). So I find it ironic and hilarious that you would actually argue this after yesterday's games, especially with "stats"

Seattle runs a good scheme for Wilson. And he's very opportunistic outside the pocket. And usually throws well on the run, rolling out (except deep, where I think he floats to many).

However, he's not an excellent pocket QB to say the least.

This is why you also need the eye test. Otherwise, Blake Bortles and Kirk Cousins would be considered top QB's.

PS: What did Wilson do in yesterday's game from the pocket (nothing)?

The stats I quoted are from the pocket.  Wilson's stats when he leaves the pocket are not included.  He's been phenomenal from the pocket this year by any measure.

Kaepernick and RG3 had good stats over relatively short periods of time but regressed.  Nick Foles had one great season but has been terrible since then. I can name other examples.  Wilson's stats have been historically good for four full seasons which is why Seahawks fans like to quote them. They're the same stats that are used to judge passing efficiency for all qbs but for some reason his detractors find a million reasons why they shouldn't apply to him.  He doesn't rack up huge volume numbers because Seattle's offense isn't built on throwing 40 times a game (neither is Carolina's) but any stat having to do with passing efficiency is outstanding, including from the pocket.  

The game yesterday was played in minus 25 degree wind chill so anyone attempting to use that as an example of Wilson's deficiencies has an agenda.  I wouldn't count on seeing him struggle with his accuracy like that next Sunday when his fingers aren't frozen and the ball doesn't feel like a brick.

[Khyber53]

Dismissing Wilson from the conversation would be a bad idea. Stats, individual games, what not. He's got one of those big, heavy rings and two trips to the big dance in his career already. You can shrug and push it away to other reasons, but in the end, winners win and that's what elevates them to greatness. 

The young man has it. Cam has it as well. That's what makes it such a great rivalry to be able to watch in the coming years. 

Luck, honestly, I just seem him as Elway ... great in his own right, but he could couldn't claim the spotlight until Montana and Marino had started exiting the stage. And then the generation turned as he took his final bow.

 

 

[FootballMaestro]

49 minutes ago, TXHawk said:

The stats I quoted are from the pocket.  Wilson's stats when he leaves the pocket are not included.  He's been phenomenal from the pocket this year by any measure.

Kaepernick and RG3 had good stats over relatively short periods of time but regressed.  Nick Foles had one great season but has been terrible since then. I can name other examples.  Wilson's stats have been historically good for four full seasons which is why Seahawks fans like to quote them. They're the same stats that are used to judge passing efficiency for all qbs but for some reason his detractors find a million reasons why they shouldn't apply to him.  He doesn't rack up huge volume numbers because Seattle's offense isn't built on throwing 40 times a game (neither is Carolina's) but any stat having to do with passing efficiency is outstanding, including from the pocket.  

The game yesterday was played in minus 25 degree wind chill so anyone attempting to use that as an example of Wilson's deficiencies has an agenda.  I wouldn't count on seeing him struggle with his accuracy like that next Sunday when his fingers aren't frozen and the ball doesn't feel like a brick.

Look at Wilson's TDs when you talk about from the pocket. That's the clear indicator of what I'm talking about. There's a disparity. So many of his TD's are when he rolls out and floats the ball to defenders off misdirection (either short passes or long, but all floaters). The disparities between his IN POCKET and OUT OF POCKET TD's. That's a fact. The overwhelming majority of Newtons are in the pocket. He doesn't  have to rely on roll outs, bootlegs, or floaters to throw TD's. For years, Panther OC's rarely ran bootlegs (especially) or roll outs for Newton, and just started doing so increasingly recently. 

The time Wilson did throw TD's from the pocket, was when they were making him get rid of the ball quickly. So it's not like he was "dug in there" for the most part.

I mentioned RG3 and Kaep, because they were doing the same things, while they accumulated their good stats during their early careers.

Yes, I would agree Russ is better than them. But they also had their issues as well. "Kaep's" coach left. And RG3 was dumb enough to want to play exclusively from the pocket. Who knows what Kaep will do, if/when he gets a Chip Kelly (still won't make him good from the pocket though).

Not sure Wilson could go to any other team and be as successful as he is now? Do you? IMO, His OC does a good job of scheming for him, or responding to his challenges. Good for them!

So I would agree Russ is smarter than both Keep and RG3, and reads defense better. But I would also argue, Wilson's not the classic pocket QB when he's throwing Td's either as some want us to believe (including Hawk fans). He's not. If he doesn't get it out quick, he's usually running on a some sort of roll out or bootlegs (as he's done his past 5 games almost exclusively, as well as yesterday). His first instinct is to run (even when he doesn't). However, that's not Newtons. He's big, strong, and committed enough to stand in there, and see over the defense or OL.

And I don't excuse him for yesterday's weather (as you are now). Because Cam Newton played in 3-4 games in monsoon like conditions, which greatly effected his QB stats (along, with his receiver drops, which lead  to INT's and missed TD's).....I never heard a Seattle fan bring that up (weather), or take it into consideration when discussing Newton's "completion percentage or DVOA (though it effected him greatly, and he's a different type of QB; i.e. downfield thrower)", or whatever stats y'all like to quote.  LOL. So neither will I.

Right or wrong?

[TXHawk]

11 minutes ago, FootballMaestro said:

Look at Wilson's TDs when you talk about from the pocket. That's the clear indicator of what I'm talking about. So many of his TD's are when he rolls out and floats the ball to defenders off misdirection (either short passes or long, but all floaters). There's a disparity there with his IN POCKET and OUT OF POCKET TD's. That's a fact. The overwhelming majority of Newtons are in the pocket. 

The time Wilson did throw TD's from the pocket, was when they were making him get rid of the ball quickly.

I mentioned RG3 and Kaep, because they were doing the same things, while they accumulated their good stats.

Yes, I would agree Russ is better than them. But they also had their issues as well. "Kaep's" coach left. And RG3 was dumb enough to want to play exclusively from the pocket.

Not sure Wilson could go to any other team and be as successful as he is now? Do you?

So I would agree Russ is smarter than both Keep and RGR, and reads defenses more and better. But I would also argue, Wilson's not the classic pocket QB when he's throwing Td's either as some believe. If he doesn't get it out quick, he's usually running on a some sort of roll out or bootlegs (as he's done his past 5 games almost exclusively, as well as yesterday).

And I don't excuse him for yesterday's weather (as you are now). Because Cam Newton played in 3-4 games in monsoon like conditions (which greatly effected his QB stats), along with his receiver drops leading to INT's and missed TD's. And I've never heard a Seattle fan, bring that up, or take it into consideration when discussing Newton's "completion percentage (though it effected him greatly, and he's a different type of QB; i.e. downfield thrower)"  or DVOA. LOL. So neither will I.

Right or wrong?

31 of Wilson's 34 TD passes this season came from the pocket.

And Wilson plays in Seattle so he's played in plenty of rain games in his career.  Yesterday's game was the third coldest in NFL history and is completely different than playing in rain. 

 

[Cat]

2 hours ago, TheRumGone said:

I don't really like him after his water Ciara and God comments. Honestly that was creepy as hell. And I'm not a state fan. Wilsons 1 read or 2 reads is partly because of an o line issue. That oline was nearly as bad as cams at the beginning of last year until they made some changes and started running more 3 receiver sets. Wilson is not nearly as refined as cam in the pocket. That's not even a question with how Cam walks up to the line reads the defense and audibles and reads the field sideline to sideline. 

But that last game is not indicative of RWs season. He can beat you from the pocket wether it's his first second or third read. He has shown that ability on a consistent basis notwithstanding the tundra game yesterday. You could see how much the ball was affected in the air and people in the game day threads were like "hahahahaha another duck from Wilson!" As if that's the norm. It's not. 

I loathe the Seahawks and I wanna crush them so their fanbase can stfu but I'm not gonna sit here and act like RW is some scrub who "runs around like a hamster" and throws up prayers all the time. It happens with him but that's not his entire game.

i like talking honest football when game days have subsided and my rage for the Seahawks goes down a bit and I have a clear head. They are a lucky team in big moments maybe the luckiest team I have ever seen in my 20 years of watching football but that isn't the full picture.

You just spoke my mind. 

[MVPccaffrey]

Too many huddlers are hostile to anyone who isn't an excuse making panthers homer, just ignore that visiting fans.  To listen to some on here you'd think RW was running for his life on every play throwing "lucky" heaves that happen to get caught more often than not.  

The crapping on RW is just baffling.  My guess is it comes from continued insecurity when outsiders dare compare him to Cam.  You see the same thing with Luck, and you used to with Kap and RGIII for the same reason but now you don't since they aren't in that conversation anymore.  Seattle has a shoddy O-line the first half of the season yet RW throws 34 TDs and leads the league in passer rating by a large margin.  What does it serve to talk bad about a QB who has beaten us 4/5 times?  It just makes our record against them look worse!

 

Cam is going to win MVP by a near unanimous count, RW probably won't get more than one vote if any.  Everyone knows Cam would have just as many SB rings as Russell if he'd been quarterbacking that 2013 Hawks team.  Cam has a chance to earn his own ring this year and for the next many going forward.  It's time to stop being so insecure, you know who you are