knowing everything you know now, who and when would you have replaced jake

[Fiz]

My personal feeling is that didn't set well with a lot of players in that locker room.

you are just pulling poo out of your ass and i wish you'd stop.

The team wasn't nearly as close as it had been in Fox's first three years. A lot of locker room sniping going on. But they put it together in the playoffs in a weak NFC. How weak? The AFC's sixth-seeded team was favored over the NFC's top seed in the Super Bowl.

the NFC wasn't weak, the bears were one of the better teams in the league, and the seahawks had a sick offense. seattle would have won if not for the refs.

But he was never a guy who could go out and beat the best for you. Even in the Super Bowl, they beat Tampa Bay in Tampa (the game that I think established the team as a contender) with Jake having a 14 rating or something like that. And he only attempted 14 passes against Philly in the NFCG.

no one who posts on a panthers message board should need someone to point out all the times that jake did, in fact, win games for the panthers, or any of his huge performances, or all he did for the team during his time as a starter. do his 14 passes in the nfccg cancel out what he did the week before, or two weeks later? of course they don't.

you don't really strike me as very knowledgeable about.... anything.

[Sloth]

you are just pulling poo out of your ass and i wish you'd stop.

the NFC wasn't weak, the bears were one of the better teams in the league, and the seahawks had a sick offense. seattle would have won if not for the refs.

no one who posts on a panthers message board should need someone to point out all the times that jake did, in fact, win games for the panthers, or any of his huge performances, or all he did for the team during his time as a starter. do his 14 passes in the nfccg cancel out what he did the week before, or two weeks later? of course they don't.

you don't really strike me as very knowledgeable about.... anything.

Nice strawman.

He said Jake, on his best day, was a guy who wasn't going to go out and beat the best. He's right. He didn't say Jake couldn't or hadn't won games, which you already knew, but whatever.

[Matt Foley]

you are just pulling poo out of your ass and i wish you'd stop.

the NFC wasn't weak, the bears were one of the better teams in the league, and the seahawks had a sick offense. seattle would have won if not for the refs.

no one who posts on a panthers message board should need someone to point out all the times that jake did, in fact, win games for the panthers, or any of his huge performances, or all he did for the team during his time as a starter. do his 14 passes in the nfccg cancel out what he did the week before, or two weeks later? of course they don't.

you don't really strike me as very knowledgeable about.... anything.

I don't care what you think. And I'll continue to post, so either deal with it or go pound sand in your ass.

[Spike]

You do NOT give up a first in the next years draft knowing that 3-4 good NFL calibre QBs are in the 2010 draft. You then sign Garcia in the summer to a one-year deal and let Jake's contract run its course. Dump McCown. Then when 2010 hits...you don't have Garcia...and you fill the void with the draftee from the 2010 draft and work him in. If Garcia exceled...then you sign him to another 1 year and drop Moore or Jake. Doesn't really matter at that point. That's what I would've done.

Dan LeFevour(Central Michigan) and Tim Hiller(Western Michigan) will probably be available in the 3rd round next year but not much later.

[Woodie]

There is a lot of hindsight drafting going on here. If you are playing this game, you have to play by the same rules the team did at the time of the draft, or during the FA period, and that's only using the information that was available at that time, not years later.

Now to talk about some specific scenarios that have been brought up, here are my thoughts.

Rogers over Davis - Rogers fell for a reason, and it wasn't that nobody could have used a QB. Despite initially being hyped as a potential #1, there was some concern by scouts (actual scouts, not the Mel Kiper's of the world) that he would struggle in the NFL. At best, it was thought that he might be worth a flier, but by no means did anyone think he was a sure fire starter. And minus the extended development in a QB friendly system learning behind a hall of fame QB, you can't assume he would have turned out to be what he is today (particularly if he had McCoy as his QB coach).

Flacco over Stewart - This has been discussed to some degree, Flacco would not have been given the opportunity to play and develop here like he was in Baltimore, nor have we shown the ability to develop a QB to the point where he is now. So just because he is doing well with the Ravens, you can't assume we would have gotten the same results. On top of that, you can't forget that he was a guy coming from a small school who looked good against a lower level of competition, and there were some concerns about his decision-making and accuracy. The biggest selling point for him was his size and huge arm. So while it now looks like Flacco would have been the better choice, the truth is that he was a VERY risky pick, one that had a high chance of busting or at least needing several seasons of development before being ready.

And as for taking Stewart, a big reason he (or any RB) was taken so high is that the FO was not sold on DeAngelo as the long term feature back. He was still having problems in blitz pickups and was not ideally conditioned (by his own admission), so he had not yet shown that he was able to carry the offense. I don't think there was any question he would be a solid rotation guy, but many felt he was best served as the backup to a power oriented feature back.

Cassell - Would anyone really expect a guy that didn't even start in college to be our QB of the future? Heck, even NE took him because they thought he could be developed into a decent backup. I don't believe they thought they were looking at Brady's eventual replacement when they brought him in. If the Panthers picked him, he would probably have been thought of like Brett Bazanez was...nothing more than a #3 or practice squad guy.

Pennington - At the time Pennington came free last year, there were questions of how much he had left in the tank. He's been oft-injured and was known for his weak arm strength. So he really did not fit the vertical passing game we employ.

Vick - Is not, and has never been a good NFL QB. What he is is a dangerous weapon due to his ability to run from the pocket. But in this offense, we get enough rush from Williams and Stewart, we don't need more. What we need is someone that has the ability to stretch the field and keep teams from going 8 in the box...and that is something that Vick cannot do. Heck, he has even worse downfield accuracy and ability to read a defense than Jake.

Favre - Had no interest in playing for Carolina. Once it was clear he was no longer wanted in GB, he only wanted to play for Minnesota. However, he couldn’t finagle that, so orchestrated a situation in which he could make it happen a year later. And even so, most people seemed to think he was done anyway, so few would have looked at him as an upgrade at the time...and the way things played out, he wouldn't have been.

Anyone drafted in the 3rd round or later doesn't count. Anyone taken at that point in the draft had some considerable questions about their game, so by no means would be expected to be a clear future upgrade to Delhomme. Looking at what they have turned out to be is revisionist and pointless.

Now for the ridiculous:

The idea that we had any chance or ability to trade up for Cutler, Sanchez, Stafford, or Ryan is beyond ludicrous. Let’s take a look.

Denver was able to get two first round picks and a vet QB as compensation. So how in the heck could we compete with that? It's all nice to generally say that we should have made a move, but this one was not one we had the ammunition to make.

Similarly, what in the world did we have to offer in order to move all the way up from 59 to the top five so we could take Stafford or Sanchez? Since we didn't even have a first round pick, at best it would have taken at least half of our blue chip players. So, would anyone be happy giving up Beason, Gamble, and Otah for one of those two QB's...both of which, according to some scouts, may not have even been a first round pick in a better draft.

Once more, let the theme play out, we did not have enough to move up to get Ryan. Atlanta was dead set on taking him at #3, Miami was similarly set on Jake Long, and the Rams were, for some reason, enamored with Chris Long. The only one we would have had any chance to pry away was St. Louis, but again, they would have required an arm and a leg to get that pick. Not to mention that if Atlanta caught wind that we were trying to move up, they would have likely tried to switch spots with the Rams.

The bottom line is that over the last few years we have never really been in a position to get a top QB. At best we would have had to gut the core of the team for the chance to pick up big risk players that had as much chance to bust as be serviceable...and a MUCH better chance of busting that being top shelf QB's. Simply put, the value was not worth the cost of getting them.

[Fiz]

He said Jake, on his best day, was a guy who wasn't going to go out and beat the best.

But he was never a guy who could go out and beat the best for you.

im sorry if you two can't understand why overwhelming evidence is contrary to what you believe.

I don't care what you think

if you're argument can't stand on its own without you justifying with it made up insider info on the team or flatly manufactured history, perhaps you should stick to posting the joke everyone else thought was to obvious to bother with in the tinderbox.

i mean everyone has things they're good at. not everyone is meant for meaningful contribution, but don't worry because lots of people appreciate dick and fart jokes.

[Spike]

In reference to Flacco I thought some people were starting to really push him as a legit option, and not just a work in progress, because of the success of Big Ben coming out of a D2 school. Am I wrong here?

sure, but flacco was no sure thing. he was a project QB from a D2 school who was drafted by a team who developed him much better than the panthers would have.

Neither Flacco or Big Ben went to D2 schools, just FYI. Flacco signed with Pittsburgh originally but transferred to a 1AA school. Big Ben went to Miami, a 1A team in the MAC.

[Cyberjag]

I would have signed Romo as a UDFA in 2003, and let him develop. In 2005, after Jake's pro-bowl appearance I would have traded him in a blockbuster deal with the Raiders for their top pick, and would have taken Rodgers AND Davis, while letting Romo take over. Then in 2008, I would have traded Romo to the Raiders again for their 2009 draft pick, let Rodgers take over, and drafted Raji to plug our middle.

I win at the internet! What's my prize?

[Fiz]

I win at the internet! What's my prize?

you're as smart as meat

here's your rattle

Neither Flacco or Big Ben went to D2 schools, just FYI. Flacco signed with Pittsburgh originally but transferred to a 1AA school. Big Ben went to Miami, a 1A team in the MAC.

ouch, yeah that's what i meant. thanks

[Matt Foley]

Like I said, Fiz...I'll continue to post here. If you and your personality disorder can't take it, go get a girlfriend.

[Pimpdaddy]

heck, we could have Flaco instead of JStewart to come in right now.

of course, we'd all be clueless on if Flaco is any good, Fox would have him 3rd string behind McCown

...sittin next to Jarrett no doubt.

If you're the backup QB, you better be able to play a whole lot better that the performance we seen by our starter, otherwise why are you eating up a roster spot... we could have taken a chance on Vick and instanly upgraded the QB position....

[SmootsDaddy89]

If the Panthers are SOOOOO good with first round picks, it stands to reason we could have nailed a pick like Flacco. Unless the coaching staff is admitting they couldn't develop a qb for jack poo, and that's why we rely on undrafted FAs and late-round picks. But if that's the case, they need to get a coaching staff in here who CAN do that. So see ya.

[Kevin Greene]

AFTER 2007

So what about after the 2007 season? Through 2.5 games, against weaker competition granted, Jake looked better than he ever had. He was throwing the ball away, making better reads, spreading his passes around, etc. His technique looked better. Maybe he'd been pressed by David Carr, who knows. What we do know is that the best free agent QB was Derek Anderson. And we also believed we had our heir apparent in Matt Moore, who I still haven't given up on.

But let's talk about that draft. Obviously it'd be nice to have Matt Ryan here, but that wasn't going to happen because Atlanta was dead set on drafting him. The only real option was Flacco.

Here's what we know. If the Carolina Panthers had drafted Joe Flacco, there'd be no Jeff Otah and there'd be no Jonathan Stewart, barring another first rounder trade.

Gotta stop right there. Flacco was the right option at 13 for a QB to supplant Delhomme. Jake was old and coming off Tommy John surgery. This was the time to think of the future. No Jonathon Stewart for sure, but selecting Flacco here would have had absoulutely nothing to do with the decision to later in the first round trade away a 1st, 2nd and 4th for the right to draft Otah. Indeed, Otah might have been even a greater need to protect your shiny new Franchise QB. Going for Stewart demonstrated how badly Hurney underestimated Deangelo Williams' ability, even after having him on the roster 2 years.

Then clearly Flacco isn't going to start. Jake will. He's not going to progress like he did in Baltimore; his coach there is a former QB. He wouldn't have started last year, since obviously you don't draft him and start him ahead of Jake, so this year would be his first and he wouldn't be an obvious improvement. Lastly, I tend to think his numbers are a little overinflated, and yesterday's explosion can be explained by it being the Chiefs.

Would Flacco start? Unknown, one thing for sure we had no idea how Jake would recover at draft time and the best QB on the roster at the end of the year was Vinne Testaverde. If you want to argue that Carolina's coaching staff is incapable of developing a QB with the talent of a Joe Flacco versus Matt Moore that's for another thread and purely speculation on your part. Flacco led the Ravens to an 11-5 record as a rookie and 2 playoff wins. His talent far and away blows apart anything we've trotted onto the field for at least a decade. Last year Flacco completed 60% of his passes and had an 80.3% QB rating while throwing for 3000 yards. He had a better defense but a weaker running game than the Panthers, I think he would have thrived here.

Yeah he had a nice game yesterday but he's been doing it since day 1 in the league.

Give me Flacco, Otah. Deangelo and Goodson and we'd be in good shape.

Right now the future is 3 year Vet Matt Moore, a guy who probably carries the clipboard for AJ Feeley after he's been on the club 5 days. The Panthers should have moved on when the opportunity was there.

[frash.exe]

Oh there are sooooo many possibilities.

I myself have been clamoring for a viable replacement long term since the end of 2006. Other teams don't need QBs, like the Patriots, or the Giants, yet they continue trying to find guys in the second round or later to fortify the QB position, at least in the event of an injury. We tried David Carr, and he did look like a good backup option, but there was no developing him or salvaging his career in real life. No, the best, most common way of getting a starting QB is to draft him and develop him.

I think people get confused with immediate need and long term need. So while we knew, up until the Arizona meltdown that there was no urgent need for a QB, we've had at least plenty of chances to get guys we could've worked with but were too f**king inept or lazy to try (or both) that, long term, could help aid the current situation we're in. By the 2009 offseason it was too late.

I break Delhomme's balls but his declining performance is just the end result of QB negligence on Fox and Hurney's part. They ignored it for years and now they are suffering, and we are suffering watching this horrible display. QBs in total accounted for 6 turnovers, which is unacceptable.