The Importance of Speedy Receivers

[L-TownCat]

2 hours ago, KSpan said:

Pretty sure he did last year too.

Rookie vs 2nd year?

C'mon be reasonable.  That's a poor argument.

[L-TownCat]

1 hour ago, nctarheel0619 said:

That BPA poo is wore out.  

Do you guys honestly think David fuging Mayo was the BPA in the 5th round of this years draft?  I don't think so.  

What player was there that we "should" have drafted that would have unequivocally improved this undefeated team?

just in case:

1.

in a way that is clear and unambiguous:

The theme is unequivocally religious.

2.

in a way that is not subject to conditions or exceptions:

He offered his forgiveness unequivocally.

[KSpan]

Just now, L-TownCat said:

Rookie vs 2nd year?

C'mon be reasonable.  That's a poor argument.

Nothing unreasonable about it - Scot made the (accurate) comment that KB caught everything in camp this year, implying that his hands may have improved. I said that he caught everything in camp last year as well, which is true. I've no doubt that 2nd year KB would be a better player than 1st year KB, but we won't know until next year if camp results will translate to the field better than it did his rookie year in terms of dropped balls.

Before the pitchforks come out, note that I think KB did a phenomenal job his rookie year, even dropping a few balls like he did.  I am a HUGE KB fan and am just calling a spade a spade when it comes to the drops; I hope it improves, but either way there's no denying that the guy can be a quality starting WR in this league. Blazing speed isn't his game but he can definitely be a 1999-2004 Moose type of player. 

[L-TownCat]

13 minutes ago, KSpan said:

Nothing unreasonable about it - Scot made the (accurate) comment that KB caught everything in camp this year, implying that his hands may have improved. I said that he caught everything in camp last year as well, which is true. I've no doubt that 2nd year KB would be a better player than 1st year KB, but we won't know until next year if camp results will translate to the field better than it did his rookie year in terms of dropped balls.

Before the pitchforks come out, note that I think KB did a phenomenal job his rookie year, even dropping a few balls like he did.  I am a HUGE KB fan and am just calling a spade a spade when it comes to the drops; I hope it improves, but either way there's no denying that the guy can be a quality starting WR in this league. Blazing speed isn't his game but he can definitely be a 1999-2004 Moose type of player. 

Agreed that KB had his issues with drops, but everyone was reporting on how he knew that was an issue and worked his tail off to correct it.  IMHO I think its a bit lazy to just assume that no progress was made or to assume that he would still be dropping passes.  The truth is we dont know and never will about what could have been this year with KB.  Thats all, no pitchforks.

[Seltzer]

The biggest reason the Panthers offense is so much better this year can be attributed IMO to 50% Cam becoming a truly MVP caliber QB, 25% Shula, & 25% the offensive line.  Beyond that, the Panthers offense can truly attack defenses at all 3 levels of the defense, and having speedy receivers makes it happen.  That is not say that KB wouldn't be a beast this year- he truly looked dominant in TC & preseason before he got hurt.

But even w/o him, the offense has worked.  On the first level, Stewart is obviously a better fit in the read-option run game than Deangelo.  Stewart leads the league in broken tackles by a RB, and no other team consistently runs QB power plays.  Our run game requires a lot of discipline and frankly physical effort to stop.  It is also according to Greg Cossell, the most intricate run game in the league.  Shula deserves some credit for that along with the offensive line.  The Panthers run game is set up to both out-scheme and also out-power opposing defenses, and it has proven to be extremely effective over the last year and a half. 23 consecutive games with 100+ rushing yards is amazing.

On the second level, Olsen makes everything work.  Opposing defenses have to commit the Front 7+ to stopping the run game, which leaves a lot of run for seam and intermediate out routes.  Funchess is also becoming more of a factor at this level.  One of the biggest credits I will give to Shula is designing plays to get receivers open in the red zone.  This was one area I was extremely worried about going into the year and especially when KB went down.  The Panthers are actually even better this year, which is one of the biggest reasons for the offensive success.  It is as hard to stop both Olsen and the run game- the first 2 levels of the Panthers offense- as anyone's in the league.

That being said, most teams at least to my judgement have gravitated towards trying to do just that.  That was precisely what New Orleans tried.  And Green Bay, Indy, and Houston instantly come to mind as other teams that have tried the same strategy.  For the most part, the Saints committed the front 7 to stopping the run (which they did reasonably well) and assigned both safeties (Vaccaro & Byrd) to stopping Olsen.  Olsen still got open some, but the biggest effect was the outside receivers were left mostly one-on-one.  This is why the 3rd level of the Panthers offense with speedy receivers like Ginn & Philly works, even if they are inconsistent.  Ginn has suspect hands, but he can run away from pretty much any DB in the league.  Philly doesn't have the same level of acceleration, but he can still get open deep.  Combine with the fact Newton, despite his accuracy issues, remains one of the best deep throwers in the league, and it makes for a scary offense.

All of this together puts an extreme amount of pressure of defenses.  A lot of the national media looks at the Panthers offense and doesn't see why it works so well b/c we don't have any elite receiving options outside of Olsen, but I'm sure all defensive coordinators see this.  Stopping a team that can execute at all 3 levels is very hard.  Most defensive coordinators try to stop the first 2 levels b/c our receivers are the weakest part of the offense, but Cam has proven he can beat you deep.  Combine that with Cam now having complete latitude at the line of scrimmage to pick a run or pass play based on the defense, and you get a top 10 offense.

[PoundCat]

3 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Speed guys are useless if they can't catch.

Our top two guys for the future are big receivers with a wide catch radius, and I agree with that choice.

It's good to have complementary speed guy (which was the plan for Ginn) but generally you want them to have more reliable hands.

I disagree.  The defense still has to cover the guy...it's not like leaving Shaq (O'Neil) unguarded at the 3 point line. Cam still targets Ginn, and will continue to do so for big gains. He still catchest the ball every now and then

[Seltzer]

14 minutes ago, PoundCat said:

I disagree.  The defense still has to cover the guy...it's not like leaving Shaq (O'Neil) unguarded at the 3 point line. Cam still targets Ginn, and will continue to do so for big gains. He still catchest the ball every now and then

Agreed.  There's a reason the Panthers wanted to resign Ginn worse than any other receiver after 2013.  He works in this offense.  Ginn is still one of the fastest guys in the league, and he brings an element to the Panthers offense that can't be understated.  The drops are unbelievably frustrating, but the fact remains he is one of the few receivers that is a home run threat every time he lines up.  The stress this puts on a defense, as good as our run game and intermediate passing game is, is hard to understate.  Gettleman & Rivera wouldn't accept the drops otherwise.  Ginn was overdrafted as a top 10 pick, but he was definitely a 1st round pick in terms of talent, even with the drops.  Ginn at 30 still has Smitty level speed in his prime.  Obviously his drops will never put him in the Smitty level of conversation, but speed is still one of the few things that can't be coached.

[Mr. Scot]

For that to work, the guy has to be a credible threat.

If he's not, teams will still cover him but they won't give him the kind of attention you're hoping he gets.

If you want to make the argument that anybody who runs really fast can do that sort of thing for an offense, then why wouldn't we have kept Drew Carter?

[frash.exe]

I have the needy to be speedy

 

[firefox1234]

I prefer speed when it comes to a well rounded guy like Djax who can actually catch and has crazy ass speed over a bigger guy with a wider catch radius.

[EightyNine]

2 hours ago, nctarheel0619 said:

That BPA poo is wore out.  

Do you guys honestly think David fuging Mayo was the BPA in the 5th round of this years draft?  I don't think so.  

Just curious..why don't you think so?

[Seltzer]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

For that to work, the guy has to be a credible threat.

If he's not, teams will still cover him but they won't give him the kind of attention you're hoping he gets.

If you want to make the argument that anybody who runs really fast can do that sort of thing for an offense, then why wouldn't we have kept Drew Carter?

Drew Carter had injuries before he even got drafted in the 5th Round, and those injuries plagued him in the NFL as well and led to his early retirement.  Drew was never a returner like Ginn, and I don't think he was even as accomplished a route runner as Ginn.  I'm not saying Ginn is anywhere near a #1 WR or really a #2 WR on a team with great WR depth, but I would take Ginn over Carter any day (and I was a huge Drew fan back in 2005- 2007).

But I do think that it's been proven Ginn is a threat in this offense b/c we dominate at the first 2 levels of offense and allow him to be in a lot of one-on-one situations.  That was never the case with the Panthers pre-Cam.  Even when we had good running games (and none were as dynamic w/o Cam), we never had a TE as good as Olsen (even Walls).  Drew Carter had a lot of one-on-ones also b/c of Smitty and his biggest year was in 2007 for  38 catches for 517 yards and 4 touchdown (had to look that up- and honestly IIRC a good bit of that was in garbage time when we were losing).  Ginn has already exceeded those numbers this year.  And Ginn's numbers here in 2013 & 2015 are not garbage time numbers.

My point is not to pontificate Ginn.  It's just that he works here b/c the way we dominate at the first 2 levels of offense with Newton/Stewart/Olsen.  Ginn is IMO a credible threat in this offense.

[Seltzer]

12 minutes ago, EightyNine said:

Just curious..why don't you think so?

Exactly.  Mayo has been solid on ST when he's been active.  That is a credit to the Panthers depth that a late round draft pick is inactive/ only on ST.  I'm sure you can cherry pick late round draft picks that have been more productive, but how much of that is a function of lesser teams being forced to play them.  So far, Gettleman has given no evidence to doubt his draft board in terms of BPA, including Mayo.

[nctarheel0619]

2 hours ago, L-TownCat said:

What player was there that we "should" have drafted that would have unequivocally improved this undefeated team?

just in case:

1.

in a way that is clear and unambiguous:

The theme is unequivocally religious.

2.

in a way that is not subject to conditions or exceptions:

He offered his forgiveness unequivocally.

I know what unequivocally means.  

I just don't think a guy rated as a 7th rounder is the BPA in the 5th round.  

Kind of like Eguigbila was rated as an undrafted prospect and was picked in the 4th round.