Walking Dead Season 6

[Porn Shop Clerk]

33 minutes ago, CRA said:

what about show watchers who merely think the storytelling has become cheap/weak and become extremely gimmicky of late?  Show seems of late to concerned with gotcha tactics or getting their own Jon Snow moment or whatever.  They forgot that at one time they actually did a good job with characters.....that has been awhile.

It's always been like that.  Since they were riding around in the back of pickups headshotting zombies in season 2, or using morning after pills 3 months into a pregnancy. They've used cheap cliches to pull strings since the very first episode when Morgan couldn't kill his wife, and were really heavy handed in their uses such as Andrea having to kill her sister, and later on Rick killing Shane, Carl killing Lori, etc, all literary devices used since the dawn of storytelling to evoke the desired emotional response. A lot has happened in a little time.  And the moment that they take their foot off the gas, everyone will be complaining about the show dragging.

They've never done the characters justice on the show. Most of the complaints would most likely center around arcs and characters or events that deviated from the source material, like magic bottle rockets, flipping vans, and Glenn's two fake deaths last season. Or that whole CDC crap that was completely out of place and reeked of a cheap SyFy movie.

Carol, however, in this time has undergone a huge transformation as a character, while Rick is undergoing his own existential crisis.  I feel that the character development argument is as founded and unfounded as it has ever been.  Daryl as well. Everyone is going to change because of this.

[Porn Shop Clerk]

Everyone complaining about the show is old and tired and sucks now, but the comic is better than ever.  I feel like the show is better than ever too. The more the show falls in line with the comics, the better they do. Some things were handled very poorly last season like when the fat kid broke down and got his face eaten and Rick had to cut the snowflake's hand off to save Carl. Completely awful.  Very frustrating and disappointing as a reader to see such an amazing moment in the source material butchered in such a 2nd rate hack way. But whatever. No use whining about it.

[CRA]

59 minutes ago, Porn Shop Clerk said:

It's always been like that.  Since they were riding around in the back of pickups headshotting zombies in season 2, or using morning after pills 3 months into a pregnancy. They've used cheap cliches to pull strings since the very first episode when Morgan couldn't kill his wife, and were really heavy handed in their uses such as Andrea having to kill her sister, and later on Rick killing Shane, Carl killing Lori, etc, all literary devices used since the dawn of storytelling to evoke the desired emotional response. A lot has happened in a little time.  And the moment that they take their foot off the gas, everyone will be complaining about the show dragging.

They've never done the characters justice on the show. Most of the complaints would most likely center around arcs and characters or events that deviated from the source material, like magic bottle rockets, flipping vans, and Glenn's two fake deaths last season. Or that whole CDC crap that was completely out of place and reeked of a cheap SyFy movie.

Carol, however, in this time has undergone a huge transformation as a character, while Rick is undergoing his own existential crisis.  I feel that the character development argument is as founded and unfounded as it has ever been.  Daryl as well. Everyone is going to change because of this.

Well to me, once the Negan/Glenn section of the story began approaching....the show runners made a clear move a gotcha/fakeouts that was noticeably different than the examples you mentioned.  

[pstall]

2 hours ago, teeray said:

This is an interesting point and it kind of leads me into a point I wanted to make about why I like the show and comics.

If you step back and look at it this is a total mind fug.  

It is is an exploration of humanity and survival and what are you willing to accept in the name of survival.

But here is where it gets trippy.  That exploration is not just limited to the characters in the story, but to the reader/watcher as well.  

Think about it.  The reader is essentially part of the group.  We have been there since the beginning.  That is why Pstall's critique of expanding the world works against the point of the show.  We the readers are meant to only see things from the perspective of the group. 

And as the group has evolved and developed we have developed with them.  To the point where we justify their homicides and are accepting of them while still believing Rick is a good guy.

But then when Glenn gets killed it is devastating for us, even if we know this is really Rick's fault.  Because we have seen Glenn from the beginning.  We know Glenn and love him.  He is a good guy who loved his wife and akways put the group before himself.  He grew from a nerdy pizza delivery guy who knew how to get around to a leader and moral compass of the group.  He is a character we should mourn getting murdered in such a barbaric way, especially in front of Maggie.

But because the reader's POV is so narrow, when Rick kills unnamed Savior #9 or someone with a two episode arc just we say to ourselves "Hey.  It is a kill or be killed world.  Rick is just trying to protect his people". Because we are part of the group, and we as readers want to see the people/characters we love and know be protected and when they die we wish vengeance on those who did it.

But unnamed Savior #9 may have been the other group's Glenn, or Herschel, or Daryl, or Maggie, etc.  But we don't feel it because we don't know them.  Not like the ones that are in our group.  So even if we recognize it was wrong we don't mourn that death

And I don't think Rick is a bad guy either.   At the end of the day his primary objective is to protect his son and his people.

But again that is because we have been there with him from the beginning.  We saw how his mistakes when he was Sheriff Rick cost him and those he was trying to protect.  And then Rick evolved to what he is now.

If Rick started in Season 1 Episode 1 like he is now we would have all hated him.  Need proof?  He has essentially turned into Shane, who was the first real main "bad" guy he had to deal with.  But he wasn't a bad guy he was just ahead of his time.  Not just for the group in the story, but also for the reader or viewer.

But Rick's past justifies his present.  But for all these other groups we meet them without that context and all we know is they are trying to hurt the group.  Our group.  This for the reader is essentially Season 1 Episode 1 of Negan.  We don't have the same POV and context so we view him as a dick and a threat.

So that is why I think Pstall's criticism of expanding the world is misguided.  Because we aren't just exploring the humanity of Rick, the group, or Negan... But also ourselves as the viewer or the reader

 

At least you were civil.  Lol

Let me say this again so  the fanboy brograde can relax.

When i  say expand i don't mean for an entire series or even an episode.  Really just much like they did at the end of one season where as it showed the prison you got a new view of where they were going.  That's pretty much it. 

I literally make one think out loud comment of how i wonder how it all ends and chaos. Not how it should be but merely a i wonder comment. 

Once Rick and co killed those dudes sleeping without a chance to either join them or be taken as prisoners you now crossed that line with Rick. You can now look and see if you yourself have justified the kills or not and does the end justifies the means?

With the ability of hindsight we now know Shane not only foreshadowed what was to come, he WAS the foreshadowing. 

And honestly you always explore yourself when you watch a film or read a book. That should be the goal.

Now let me put my tyvek suit for the caca that will get thrown.

[teeray]

1 minute ago, pstall said:

At least you were civil.  Lol

Let me say this again so  the fanboy brograde can relax.

When i  say expand i don't mean for an entire series or even an episode.  Really just much like they did at the end of one season where as it showed the prison you got a new view of where they were going.  That's pretty much it. 

I literally make one think out loud comment of how i wonder how it all ends and chaos. Not how it should be but merely a i wonder comment. 

Once Rick and co killed those dudes sleeping without a chance to either join them or be taken as prisoners you now crossed that line with Rick. You can now look and see if you yourself have justified the kills or not and does the end justifies the means?

With the ability of hindsight we now know Shane not only foreshadowed what was to come, he WAS the foreshadowing. 

And honestly you always explore yourself when you watch a film or read a book. That should be the goal.

Now let me put my tyvek suit for the caca that will get thrown.

We argue about far more serious stuff in the Tinderbox, and you should know that 9/10 times I at least try to be civil to differing POVs.  I don't always succeed but I try. 

[Porn Shop Clerk]

22 minutes ago, CRA said:

Well to me, once the Negan/Glenn section of the story began approaching....the show runners made a clear move a gotcha/fakeouts that was noticeably different than the examples you mentioned.  

Once someone has hope for the future, they're as good as dead. When your arc is finished on TWD, you're done. Noah had a bright future.  Dead. Glenn had a bright future. Dead. Abraham had a bright future. Dead. That's your happily ever after on this show. Characters are just set pieces to further the plot in that fashion, though they're generally more fleshed out than in other shows. I'm really not sure what you're saying here: 

the show runners made a clear move a gotcha/fakeouts

You mean like how they rescued Beth only to have her die in front of them?  That was BRILLIANT.

[Porn Shop Clerk]

The show seems to be driving home much harder that Rick and Company deserved what happened to Glenn moreso in the comics, which leads me to believe that Negan has a lot of respect for Rick. Probably more than anyone else in the world. Eventually, I think he regrets not coming around to Rick's side sooner, even though he'll always be a foul mouthed jackass. I see a redemption arc for Negan, and he will die when it's complete. But for Negan's redemption arc to mean anything, a sacrifice had to be made, in the most brutal fashion, to drive home how good people get ground into hamburger by desperate times.

I wouldn't say that Negan ultimately regrets what he did to Glenn as much as he comes to respect Rick. And when that has been arced out, Negan will die.

[CRA]

55 minutes ago, Porn Shop Clerk said:

Once someone has hope for the future, they're as good as dead. When your arc is finished on TWD, you're done. Noah had a bright future.  Dead. Glenn had a bright future. Dead. Abraham had a bright future. Dead. That's your happily ever after on this show. Characters are just set pieces to further the plot in that fashion, though they're generally more fleshed out than in other shows. I'm really not sure what you're saying here: 

the show runners made a clear move a gotcha/fakeouts

You mean like how they rescued Beth only to have her die in front of them?  That was BRILLIANT.

I don't know how to explain it other than there seemed to be a noticeable change awhile back in taking up the gimmicky tricks a notch.  They have always had it but seem more reliant on it of late is all....

 

[Porn Shop Clerk]

8 minutes ago, CRA said:

I don't know how to explain it other than there seemed to be a noticeable change awhile back in taking up the gimmicky tricks a notch.  They have always had it but seem more reliant on it of late is all....

 

Yeah I think they've always been doing them.

[Bronn]

The whole "gotcha" or ridiculous things got out of hand with Glenn and the Dumpster... or Carol's Terminus Rambo act...

Guess what, neither were in the comic...

The closer the show aligns with the comic, the better for it. Sure, do your own thing here and there, but don't be cheap with it.

The whole "look at the flowers" moment was a good show-only moment IMHO. If they had more things like that and less hiding under dumpsters, or stupid poo like Daryl throwing survival items into a trash bag when there is a perfectly good rolling suitcase right there in front of him, then the show would be a lot better than it has been at times.

[d-dave]

Man, the last few pages got good once folks stopped talking poo about each other!

I admit, I get caught up as a lazy American.  I get sucked into the story, into the characters, and I believe they are good because they have the most screen time.  Then I love the hardcore, wacko moments like Carol meets Rambo at Terminus, Dead-Bob's-Leg Barbecue, or and even the Abraham having a dance fight with walkers and the Alexandria building crew.

I'll give them credit for making me, a theatre teacher of all things, ignore some basic humanity for the sake of story.  Rick, in retrospect, is such a jerk.  He starts out continuing to embrace his morals, his inner Sheriff.  Then it starts to erode at the prison, especially with the Governor.  It becomes much less about morals, and survival.  

Honestly, maybe the whole thing with Negan will allow Rick to reboot himself.  Become less viscous, more calculating, and find his old morality again.  There will always be bad guys who want to take what he has, but what does he really have now?  He's got to rebuild that, both physically and personally.

[Porn Shop Clerk]

6 hours ago, Bronn said:

The whole "gotcha" or ridiculous things got out of hand with Glenn and the Dumpster... or Carol's Terminus Rambo act...

Guess what, neither were in the comic...

The closer the show aligns with the comic, the better for it. Sure, do your own thing here and there, but don't be cheap with it.

The whole "look at the flowers" moment was a good show-only moment IMHO. If they had more things like that and less hiding under dumpsters, or stupid poo like Daryl throwing survival items into a trash bag when there is a perfectly good rolling suitcase right there in front of him, then the show would be a lot better than it has been at times.

Or the way Merle sawed his own hand off, Sophia being in the barn, Daryl's grenade, Beth's unexplainable abduction, magically running into Noah, Tyreese's underwhelming death, Carl killing his Mother, Carol burning flu victims to death, and any other numerous stones we can throw.

They've always been doing it. But this one REALLY HURT goddammit, and I'm mad about it or something.

They stretched out the Governor waaaaaaay too long. Makes this little 6 month wait seem like nothing.

[Bronn]

Yeah, I was kind of turned off by the Governor on TV.

I mean, I guess the TV show did an okay job with it. But, it took way too long like you said.

Also, TV Governor was nothing like comic Governor, so that kind of sucked too.

That said, the show does still have its moments, which is cool.

I totally forgot about Merle... lol.. Don't saw the handcuff chain. Don't saw the pipe you're chained to. fug it, saw off your own hand... lmgdao that was probably the first WTF moment I had with the show and I hadn't even read the comics yet.

Also, I didn't even watch the first two seasons of the show until the third was about to start. A friend was telling us about it and how good it was, but I figured it'd be cheesy. We then binged both seasons, and I got all the comics I could and have kept up since then (at your recommendation on the comics IIRC?) Binging a show gives you a better feel overall, I think. But when you wait week to week and they just draw poo out it gets really annoying. Then you notice more of the stuff like on your list!

[Porn Shop Clerk]

I'd rather wait a week between episodes personally.  Lessens the crash.