Voth talks up Melvin Gordon in the 1st

[WOW!!]

Again if he ran a 4.56 at the combine ans he runs a 4.4 a month later then how are they so different? Answer they arent, or he coudnt have improved so much in one month.

And having a better yards after the catch is often skewed by scheme and position. For example if you are a slot receiver who works underneath and has little time to even get open, your yards after the catch isnt going to that high. Plus the more catches you make there is often regression toward the mean just based on a higher number of chances. Secondly the air raid offense of the pirates is based on spreading the ball and working horizontally not vertically so deep routes are not emphasized which obviously improves your yards after the catch if you break free from the defender and your quarterback doesnt throw the ball 40 yards down the field on every deep ball.

Again you can say all great things about a receiver and Nelson clearly is very good. But making head to head comparisons between players who play against different teams and run different schemes is not nearly as cut and dry and you try to make it appear.

But I figure you would already know that........

Excuses Excuses Excuses. ..." maybe it's the scheme or the QB or where they lined up". Sooner a later a duck is actually a duck..

All the numbers and the tape say one thing your heart says another. . I understand. .

1 consistently runs in the low 4.4 range and 1 doesn't but there is no difference for you.. Okay..

1 is considered a deep threat the other isn't there isn't a difference for you...Okay

1 consistently makes contested catches (showing off his incredible hands and body control) 1 isn't making to many contested catches and has more yards after catch.. No difference for you... Okay. .

1 ran in a pro system with more pro routes and knows more of the pro system route tree.. 1 ran ESU's college system with little pro routes in there.. No difference to you ....Okay

Let's just agree to disagree since you choose to ignore the numbers and tape..

[WOW!!]

you will see some separation between a 4.5 and a 4.4.

here Cam runs a 4.58 and RG3 ran a 4.41. that tenth of a second makes a difference in the game. one thing Hardy does excel at is stopping, and starting, changing directions, which is exhibited by his outstanding 3 cone, and short shuttle times. that could translate in him being an effective route runner, but was not shown all the time at ECU. plus, his route tree was limited based off the offense he was in. not his fault, but something you will have to consider.

Agholor ran a very complex pro style offenses at USC under Kiffin, and Sark. he has ran many different types of pro routes, and excelled in them. he is known for being one of the better route runners in the draft. plus he has shown the ability to win in the slot, and outside, which is a major plus to NFL teams.

i would be content with either, but i would give the edge to Agholor.

Thank you DaC. .

I don't know how people can act like a tenth of a second isn't difference in speed..

[Bartin]

Again if he ran a 4.56 at the combine ans he runs a 4.4 a month later then how are they so different?  Answer they arent, or he coudnt have improved so much in one month.

 

The 4.56 was run on turf. The 4.4 was run on an indoor track due to rain at the ECU pro day. You add a tenth for it being on a track which is much faster and add .5-.10 because pro days are hand timed which are always faster than the electronic timing done at the combine. He's a 4.55 guy and there is a noticeable difference between a 4.4 and a 4.56 on the field.

[panthers55]

you will see some separation between a 4.5 and a 4.4.

 

 

here Cam runs a 4.58 and RG3 ran a 4.41. that tenth of a second makes a difference in the game. one thing Hardy does excel at is stopping, and starting, changing directions, which is exhibited by his outstanding 3 cone, and short shuttle times. that could translate in him being an effective route runner, but was not shown all the time at ECU. plus, his route tree was limited based off the offense he was in. not his fault, but something you will have to consider.

 

Agholor ran a very complex pro style offenses at USC under Kiffin, and Sark. he has ran many different types of pro routes, and excelled in them. he is known for being one of the better route runners in the draft. plus he has shown the ability to win in the slot, and outside, which is a major plus to NFL teams.

 

i would be content with either, but i would give the edge to Agholor.

First of all running in track clothes is much different than running in full football gear on grass so really the difference is not that much in game speed.  Plus Hardy ran a 4.4 at his pro day so again if it so much then how can a guy improve that much unless it isnt a big deal.

Lastly no one is saying that Nelson isnt a a very good route runner, I am simply saying that Hardy is a great runner also so Nelson is not necessarily better.  As for running the route tree, Hardy did run it and the air raid offense is every bit as complex or moreso than USC.  As you note, the fact that he was often used underneath and on come back routes doesnt mean he doesnt know all the routes simply he wasn't showcased many times.

As for preferring Agholor, you aren't alone.  He has climbed the draft boards over the past month and likely will be drafted ahead of Hardy.  But I am not clear that is because of his ability as much as where he played and the visibility he had, but that is my opinion which is certainly biased.  

[LinvilleGorge]

you will see some separation between a 4.5 and a 4.4.

 

 

here Cam runs a 4.58 and RG3 ran a 4.41. that tenth of a second makes a difference in the game.

 

Some quick math...

 

4.58 - 4.41 = 0.17.

 

That's a lot closer to two tenths than one tenth.  Cut that gap almost in half.  The difference in one tenth of a second at 40 yards is about one step.

 

[panthers55]

The 4.56 was run on turf. The 4.4 was run on an indoor track due to rain at the ECU pro day. You add a tenth for it being on a track which is much faster and add .5-.10 because pro days are hand timed which are always faster than the electronic timing done at the combine. He's a 4.55 guy and there is a noticeable difference between a 4.4 and a 4.56 on the field.

I do remember that it run on an indoor track so that is a valid point but it underscores my argument. I disagree that there is much difference between the two times unless football is played on turf in shorts with no equipment. Grass is slower than turf so does that make Agholor at 4.5 guy on grass and Hardy a 4.6 guy given that natural grass is slower than turf. And who can run down the field in full gear faster looking over their shoulder on a corner route between the two? Shouldn't we be doing that if we really want to know who is faster on the field.  Truth is that there are a bunch of variables which renders 40 times nice to know but not very useful unless you have bigger gaps in time.

 

As most knowledgeable folks know, things like 3 cone and shuttle runs tell you a lot more than about agility, athleticism and quickness than a flat 40 time.  Unless I am wrong and receivers take off out of blocks in a down position and don't have to focus on catching a ball.

You guys confuse track speed with football speed which is very different. 

[panthers55]

Thank you DaC. .

I don't know how people can act like a tenth of a second isn't difference in speed..

 

Because it isn't noteworthy in football like it is in track. That is why most analysts differentiate between straight line 40 speed and football speed.   Acceleration and quickness are more important than top end speed or guys like Ginn would have gotten a ton more interest than he did.   

[Mol3m4n]

Because it isn't noteworthy in football like it is in track. That is why most analysts differentiate between straight line 40 speed and football speed. Acceleration and quickness are more important than top end speed or guys like Ginn would have gotten a ton more interest than he did.

He did get interest when he was drafted.

[WOW!!]

First of all running in track clothes is much different than running in full football gear on grass so really the difference is not that much in game speed. Plus Hardy ran a 4.4 at his pro day so again if it so much then how can a guy improve that much unless it isnt a big deal.

Lastly no one is saying that Nelson isnt a a very good route runner, I am simply saying that Hardy is a great runner also so Nelson is not necessarily better. As for running the route tree, Hardy did run it and the air raid offense is every bit as complex or moreso than USC. As you note, the fact that he was often used underneath and on come back routes doesnt mean he doesnt know all the routes simply he wasn't showcased many times.

As for preferring Agholor, you aren't alone. He has climbed the draft boards over the past month and likely will be drafted ahead of Hardy. But I am not clear that is because of his ability as much as where he played and the visibility he had, but that is my opinion which is certainly biased.

Good you've admitted your opinion is biased. . This is why you can make every excuse for why the numbers are the way they are and ignore the speed difference. . We understand... This should be done now..

[WOW!!]

Some quick math...

4.58 - 4.41 = 0.17.

That's a lot closer to two tenths than one tenth. Cut that gap almost in half. The difference in one tenth of a second at 40 yards is about one step.

So in your opinion Hardy and Agholor are the same speed??

[DaCityKats]

Some quick math...

 

4.58 - 4.41 = 0.17.

 

That's a lot closer to two tenths than one tenth.  Cut that gap almost in half.  The difference in one tenth of a second at 40 yards is about one step.

 

 

in a game of inches, that is what some would call separation. 

[WOW!!]

in a game of inches, that is what some would call separation.

Good point! !

[LinvilleGorge]

So in your opinion Hardy and Agholor are the same speed??

 

No.  Agholor is faster.  It's just that the difference in a tenth or so of a second in straight line speed is pretty marginal.  If a guy is thought to be a 4.4 guy and runs a 4.5, I don't think scouts really re-evaluate that guy.  He's still basically who you thought he was.  Now, if he runs 4.6+, that's when they probably go back and have another look.  A slow 40 is a big reason why Keenan Allen fell out of the 1st round after many thought he was a top 10 early in the process.  Turned out he should've been a top 10 pick, but when a WR runs that slow, it's definitely a huge red flag.  Didn't matter with Allen.

[Nick_81]

Black & Blue Review ‏@BlackBlueReview  1m1 minute ago

For those intrigued by Nelson Agholor, this is quite a stat http://ow.ly/LEW39