Voth talks up Melvin Gordon in the 1st

[panthers55]

Serious question

How can you form a opinion but say "I haven't watch one of the comparison players". .. play"??

Of course I have watched Nelson but not to the same level,I have watched Hardy extensively so unlike many here I don't just watch highlight reels or select plays or games and assume that I have enough expertise to make a judgement or comparison about every player. Notice I have not said that Nelson is not as good or denigrated him. I simply said you are underating Hardy and he would be a better value than Ogholor in my opinion given what is being reported about both by those in the media who do claim expert status. I pointed out that your opinion of Nelson is not universally held so it is not a given or something that is not open to debate. I respect your opinion but believe it is just that, your non expert opinion which is no more valid than any other opinion here. I wish more people would stop acting as if they are some kind of expert when they have had little or no formal training by an expert and only think they know what they are talking about. Some of us acknowledge we are fans and offer no expert status.

[Moorgan]

I'm curious. How is Melvin Gordon a "CJ2K type runner"?

Gordon relies more on cutting than Johnson did. Gordon's vision is also much better. He doesn't have Johnson's straight-line speed, but beats him in COD.

He is more like McCoy and Charles (although Charles has blazing speed) than Johnson.

I read this as Gordon can beat Johnson at Call of Duty. It might be true. But if Gordon is a camper...do not want.

[WOW!!]

Of course I have watched Nelson but not to the same level,I have watched Hardy extensively so unlike many here I don't just watch highlight reels or select plays or games and assume that I have enough expertise to make a judgement or comparison about every player. Notice I have not said that Nelson is not as good or denigrated him. I simply said you are underating Hardy and he would be a better value than Ogholor in my opinion given what is being reported about both by those in the media who do claim expert status. I pointed out that your opinion of Nelson is not universally held so it is not a given or something that is not open to debate. I respect your opinion but believe it is just that, your non expert opinion which is no more valid than any other opinion here. I wish more people would stop acting as if they are some kind of expert when they have had little or no formal training by an expert and only think they know what they are talking about. Some of us acknowledge we are fans and offer no expert status.

The problem here is we aren't talking about value or who is the better WR P55..

We were debating 1 trait that Agholor is better than Hardy in.. He is a better route runner. . He's faster, he's quicker , he gets more separation, he is a deep threat .. This isn't debatable because all the numbers from the combine and pro day say so.. The tape shows 1 guy making way more contested catches and the other catching way more bombs.. You want to sit here and act like 4.42 is no different than 4.56 really?? You don't have to be a expert to see there is a difference. .

[panthers55]

The problem here is we aren't talking about value or who is the better WR P55..

We were debating 1 trait that Agholor is better than Hardy in.. He is a better route runner. . He's faster, he's quicker , he gets more separation, he is a deep threat .. This isn't debatable because all the numbers from the combine and pro day say so.. The tape shows 1 guy making way more contested catches and the other catching way more bombs.. You want to sit here and act like 4.42 is no different than 4.56 really?? You don't have to be a expert to see there is a difference. .

I don't know that everyone agrees that he is even a better route runner. Hardy was observed by some to be the best route runner at the Senior Bowl which included guys expected to be drafted above him. Yeah I know Nelson wasnt at the senior bowl but the point is that Hardy is considered one of the best route runners in the draft.

And yeah the difference between 4.42 and 4.56 is less than a full body length.FWIW Hardy ran a 4..4 at his pro day so if they are so different then how can he run that much faster a month after the combine? Obviously you arent expert enough to know that 40 times can easily change and you clearly put too much emphasis on a tenth of a second which players can vary from one performance to another. Again the numbers aren't that clear except in your opinion.

If their40 times are similar then the argument that Nelson is a better deep threat or faster apparently isn't supported by fact either. Maybe stick with Agholar is quicker out of breaks although since he didn't run 3 cone or the shuttle at the combine or his pro day they don't have comparisons. As for game film, unless they are lined up against the same player running the same routes, what you see is how Agholar runs against the defenders he faced which were different than the ones Hardy faced. Do you have any film where they both competed against the same guy running similar routes? Otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges.

[davos]

What DT rotation in the league has 2 Starting Quality under 25 years old and a backup 1st rounder?

Is it a new rule that you only have 1st round DT'S in rotation? ?

Can we go with the older guys and Kyle Love (people seem to forget he is in the mix) for another season and maybe use a later round pick to build depth??

Don't we use DE'S on passing downs at 3tech?? Does that count in our rotation??

Am I the only person thinking it's a luxury to have that many resources in 1 position??

 

You're not alone, I was just looking for clarification which you did given the way the argument was framed.  Thanks. 

[Khyber53]

I think Gordon is a better draft pick than Gurley. That being said, I don't think either will be available at the #25 pick as there are a lot of teams with running back needs, whether they'll admit the position is important or not.

 

If Gordon is there at #25 however, I hope we pick him. Gurley at #25 is just too big of a gamble coming off that incredibly serious knee injury. That torn ligament probably cost the kid millions of dollars, but that doesn't mean it should cost us millions, too.

 

I'd rather we wait and pick up a second or third rounder RB to fill in behind Stewie. He's going to need it.

[WOW!!]

I don't know that everyone agrees that he is even a better route runner. Hardy was observed by some to be the best route runner at the Senior Bowl which included guys expected to be drafted above him. Yeah I know Nelson wasnt at the senior bowl but the point is that Hardy is considered one of the best route runners in the draft.

And yeah the difference between 4.42 and 4.56 is less than a full body length.FWIW Hardy ran a 4..4 at his pro day so if they are so different then how can he run that much faster a month after the combine? Obviously you arent expert enough to know that 40 times can easily change and you clearly put too much emphasis on a tenth of a second which players can vary from one performance to another. Again the numbers aren't that clear except in your opinion.

They are clear and the tape is clear as well..

You have 1 players who is constantly (on tape) making contested catches.. Compare to player who is constantly getting enough separation to have a better yard after catch avg., making more deeper plays down the field and not making as many contested catches. . Also 1 player week after week is playing better competition. .

You can sit here and act like 4.42 is no different than 4.56 but there is a difference.. You can see that 4.56 isn't a deep threat like 4.42.. You can see that 4.42 rarely gets caught from behind. . 4.56 Gets caught from behind often..

You can see that Macklin (4.4 guy) is a different speed than Lafell and Crabtree (4.5 guys)..

Again nobody is saying Hardy isn't one of the better route runners in this class.. He absolutely is.. But he isn't better at it than other players in this class and it isn't that hard to see..

[WOW!!]

I think Gordon is a better draft pick than Gurley. That being said, I don't think either will be available at the #25 pick as there are a lot of teams with running back needs, whether they'll admit the position is important or not.

If Gordon is there at #25 however, I hope we pick him. Gurley at #25 is just too big of a gamble coming off that incredibly serious knee injury. That torn ligament probably cost the kid millions of dollars, but that doesn't mean it should cost us millions, too.

I'd rather we wait and pick up a second or third rounder RB to fill in behind Stewie. He's going to need it.

I don't want a 1st round RB at all.. But the only reason Gordon and Gurley are even in the same sentence... Is Gurley injuries. .

Gordon caught 19 passes his whole college career and he fumble the ball 12x last year and lost 7 of them.. He isn't nearly the versatile weapon that Gurley is..

[Jeremy Igo]

I don't want a 1st round RB at all.. But the only reason Gordon and Gurley are even in the same sentence... Is Gurley injuries. .

Gordon caught 19 passes his whole college career and he fumble the ball 12x last year and lost 7 of them.. He isn't nearly the versatile weapon that Gurley is..

Pretty much.

Zero percent chance the Panthers take him.

[Khyber53]

Dang, I had somehow missed that Gordon had a case of fumble-itis. It can be cured, but... No, we need to pass on him.

 

One thing about D'Angelo Williams was that he almost never fumbled, I mean, historically good at holding onto the ball. Stewie's been pretty good, too. 

[panthers55]

They are clear and the tape is clear as well..

You have 1 players who is constantly (on tape) making contested catches.. Compare to player who is constantly getting enough separation to have a better yard after catch avg., making more deeper plays down the field and not making as many contested catches. . Also 1 player week after week is playing better competition. .

You can sit here and act like 4.42 is no different than 4.56 but there is a difference.. You can see that 4.56 isn't a deep threat like 4.42.. You can see that 4.42 rarely gets caught from behind. . 4.56 Gets caught from behind often..

You can see that Macklin (4.4 guy) is a different speed than Lafell and Crabtree (4.5 guys)..

Again nobody is saying Hardy isn't one of the better route runners in this class.. He absolutely is.. But he isn't better at it than other players in this class and it isn't that hard to see..

Again if he ran a 4.56 at the combine ans he runs a 4.4 a month later then how are they so different?  Answer they arent, or he coudnt have improved so much in one month.

 

And having a better yards after the catch is often skewed by scheme and position.  For example if you are a slot receiver who works underneath and has little time to even get open, your yards after the catch isnt going to that high.  Plus the more catches you make there is often regression toward the mean just based on a higher number of chances. Secondly the air raid offense of the pirates is based on spreading the ball and working horizontally not vertically so deep routes are not emphasized which obviously improves your yards after the catch if you break free from the defender and your quarterback doesnt throw the ball 40 yards down the field on every deep ball.

 

Again you can say all great things about a receiver and Nelson clearly is very good.  But making head to head comparisons between players who play against different teams and run different schemes is not nearly as cut and dry and you try to make it appear.

 

But I figure you would already know that........

[jdpanther5]

I think I'd rather take a Coleman or Ajayi in the second over these guys in the first.

[DaCityKats]

you will see some separation between a 4.5 and a 4.4.

 

 

here Cam runs a 4.58 and RG3 ran a 4.41. that tenth of a second makes a difference in the game. one thing Hardy does excel at is stopping, and starting, changing directions, which is exhibited by his outstanding 3 cone, and short shuttle times. that could translate in him being an effective route runner, but was not shown all the time at ECU. plus, his route tree was limited based off the offense he was in. not his fault, but something you will have to consider.

 

Agholor ran a very complex pro style offenses at USC under Kiffin, and Sark. he has ran many different types of pro routes, and excelled in them. he is known for being one of the better route runners in the draft. plus he has shown the ability to win in the slot, and outside, which is a major plus to NFL teams.

 

i would be content with either, but i would give the edge to Agholor.

[DaCityKats]

on topic, Gordon put up some crazy numbers in the BIG10. i do believe the better value could be outside of the 1st for a RB.