The 2012-13 76ers and this year's Hornets...

[cbarrier90]

A long time ago, the 76ers tried to actually win basketball games and fielded competitive teams. Right now, they are in the midst of a historic rebuild the likes of which we haven't seen in sports, but I think it's important to see why they are doing such a thing, and particularly how they got there, because it bears a striking resemblance to the recent years of Charlotte basketball.

 

This is the roster for the 2011-12 Sixers, a team that finished 35-31 in the lockout shortened season, good enough for the 8th seed in the East. They upset the Bulls in the first round and lost in seven to the Celtics in the conference semis.

 

The players on that team drafted by Philly:

 

Lavoy Allen, 2nd round, 50th, 2011

Spencer Hawes, 1st round, 10th, 2007

Jrue Holiday, 1st round, 17th, 2009

Andre Iguodala, 1st round, 9th, 2004

Evan Turner, 1st round, 2nd, 2010

Nikola Vucevic, 1st round, 16th, 2011

Lou Williams, 2nd round, 45th, 2005

Thad Young, 1st round, 12th, 2007

 

It was generally thought that this team had a bright future with a young core that would only improve going forward, but to take the next step and contend with the "Big Three" Heat, they would need to tweak the roster. With Dwight Howard to the Lakers a formality, but the Magic getting cold feet about taking back Andrew Bynum, the Sixers saw an opportunity to acquire an All-Star center and traded Mo Harkless, Vucevic, and a 1st to Orlando and Iguodala to Denver for Jason Richardson and Andrew Bynum.

 

Of course, it was a move that backfired tremendously and will go down as one of the most lopsided trades in NBA history. The red flags that gave Orlando cold feet about Bynum showed up in the worst way in Philadelphia and he never played a game in a Sixers uniform. Despite this colossal bust, it didn't completely tank the season as Philly finished 9th in the East with a 34-48 record. Philly fired it's GM, Doug Collins resigned, and the Great Tank commenced with the hiring of Sam Hinkie, who gutted the young but underwhelming core of the team in favor of acquiring draft prospects with higher ceilings and avoiding making big splashy moves on the trade market and in free agency.

 

The saga of the 76ers looks remarkably familiar to the Bobcats-Hornets transition, from the initial optimism of the young core, to the risky move that backfires and turns a promising future into a lost season. The question is, where do the Hornets go from here? Obviously, a tank on the Sixers level is probably overkill, but you can see why it was done.

[bLACKpANTHER]

One thing is we never traded away assets to get where we are at. All our trades have made us come out on top. We still have all our draft picks. Jefferson, Lance, Marv and Roberts were all FA. It didn't take mortgaging our future to get them here. And all it took for Mo was Gary Neal's terrible shot selection. We are in better shape. We just need to make the right pick in the draft and develop Vonleh

[cbarrier90]

One thing is we never traded away assets to get where we are at. All our trades have made us come out on top. We still have all our draft picks. Jefferson, Lance, Marv and Roberts were all FA. It didn't take mortgaging our future to get them here. And all it took for Mo was Gary Neal's terrible shot selection. We are in better shape. We just need to make the right pick in the draft and develop Vonleh

But that's the problem: your last sentence. We have made one "right" pick and it was MKG and he can't even shoot. Develop Vonleh? When is the last time this franchise developed a player to their full potential?

Everybody wants to talk about this great young core we have, but what is the ceiling for that core? Outside of MKG it looks like a bunch of role players who don't do anything elite (outside of MKG's defense.) Don't even get me started on the draft record.

[bLACKpANTHER]

But that's the problem: your last sentence. We have made one "right" pick and it was MKG and he can't even shoot. Develop Vonleh? When is the last time this franchise developed a player to their full potential?

Everybody wants to talk about this great young core we have, but what is the ceiling for that core? Outside of MKG it looks like a bunch of role players who don't do anything elite (outside of MKG's defense.) Don't even get me started on the draft record.

 

you are right, we have drafted role players..

 

we havent drafted any 'big misses' in awhile but no players that truely move the needle either.. even MKG doesn't move the needle that much.. we need to get an allstar.. they dont grow on trees.. the way Jefferson played last year- he shuda made it- but he shouldnt have been the centerpiece of a team looking to move forward and build..

[cbarrier90]

you are right, we have drafted role players..

we havent drafted any 'big misses' in awhile but no players that truely move the needle either.. even MKG doesn't move the needle that much.. we need to get an allstar.. they dont grow on trees.. the way Jefferson played last year- he shuda made it- but he shouldnt have been the centerpiece of a team looking to move forward and build..

Bingo. Which is the point I tried to make by making the thread and why the Sixers are doing what they are doing to the extent that they've gone yo in order to do it. They found themselves in a very similar situation.

They aren't very talented, but they are all young and athletic (outside of J Rich) and play hard every night which is more than I can say for this Hornets team, and that's the real shame.

[toldozer]

Three teams will make the playoffs under .500 in the east. Nba basketball as a whole SUCKS. I'm not sure how you go about fixing that. They should consider completely eliminating conferences

[Spaceshoes]

Don't eliminate conferences. If players from the west want to make it to the playoffs then sign with an Eastern Conference team. If players would do that then it would even itself out. If they don't, then don't complain.

[Kakarot]

Wouldn't say the NBA as a whole sucks. It's just the Eastern conference, aside a few teams, sucks. I can't wait for the Western Conference playoffs. We're going to see some great ball from that side this summer.

[Batman]

you are right, we have drafted role players..

we havent drafted any 'big misses' in awhile but no players that truely move the needle either.. even MKG doesn't move the needle that much.. we need to get an allstar.. they dont grow on trees.. the way Jefferson played last year- he shuda made it- but he shouldnt have been the centerpiece of a team looking to move forward and build..

2014-15 Team Record

with MKG--- 28-27 W/L

w/out MKG- 5-16 W/L

2014-15 Team Defensive Ranking

with MKG--- 3rd out of 30

w/out MKG- 29th out of 30

If that's not moving the needle, then what the hell is?!

Of all the major sports, the NBA has the least intelligent fanbase. If you don't shoot 30 times a game and have cool commercials you aren't a star. Nobody seems to understand how the game of basketball is played. You win championships by playing great defense. No team ranked 9th or lower defensively has ever won a championship. Nobody. Not even Jordan.

It's really sad how much disrespect MKG gets. He is a star. The difference he makes by being on the court is astronomical. I can't wait to see the reactions and meltdowns when he gets a max contract.

[bLACKpANTHER]

2014-15 Team Record

with MKG--- 28-27 W/L

w/out MKG- 5-16 W/L

2014-15 Team Defensive Ranking

with MKG--- 3rd out of 30

w/out MKG- 29th out of 30

If that's not moving the needle, then what the hell is?!

Of all the major sports, the NBA has the least intelligent fanbase. If you don't shoot 30 times a game and have cool commercials you aren't a star. Nobody seems to understand how the game of basketball is played. You win championships by playing great defense. No team ranked 9th or lower defensively has ever won a championship. Nobody. Not even Jordan.

It's really sad how much disrespect MKG gets. He is a star. The difference he makes by being on the court is astronomical. I can't wait to see the reactions and meltdowns when he gets a max contract.

 

MKG can't get anymore respect from me. I love him. He is our MVP, as I said. But he is Not an Allstar. He is not going to get you a bucket all by himself (which is what the NBA is all about right now). I don't say that to discredit him, I say it because it's the truth. He won't go for 25+ or even 20+ on a regular basis and only has around 10 double-doubles this year = that is not moving the needle very much.

 

The record with him on the court and off the court is drastic, yes, but look again at the record with him on the court- it is just barely over .500

 

We need a player that is an Allstar to team up with MKG, period.

[Batman]

MKG can't get anymore respect from me. I love him. He is our MVP, as I said. But he is Not an Allstar. He is not going to get you a bucket all by himself (which is what the NBA is all about right now). I don't say that to discredit him, I say it because it's the truth. He won't go for 25+ or even 20+ on a regular basis and only has around 10 double-doubles this year = that is not moving the needle very much.

The record with him on the court and off the court is drastic, yes, but look again at the record with him on the court- it is just barely over .500

We need a player that is an Allstar to team up with MKG, period.

MKG is in the mold of Scottie Pippen, a HOFer & one of the 50 greatest players in NBA history.

Pippen only averaged 20+ points 4 times & averaged 16 points for his career. He didn't reach 20 points until he was 26 years old. MKG is only 21. MKG only plays 26 mpg, of course he doesn't score a ton or have double doubles. If he played 36 minutes like most starters he'd be averaging a double double this year at age 21.

Pippen made his first All-Star Game at age 24, MKG is already as good as Pippen was then and he's only 21.

Per 36

Pippen, 24- 15 Pt, 6 Reb, 5 Ast, 2 Stl

M.K.G., 21- 14 Pt, 10 Reb, 3 Ast, 2 Stl

You are selling MKG short. You don't know that he'll never average 20 points. He's averaging 14 per 36 at age 21 when he just completely restructured his shot. Besides, even if he never hits 20 be is still a star. Dennis Rodman averaged 7 points a game for his career and he's one of the greatest forwards of all time & was a cornerstone of multiple championship teams in different cities.

And the NBA is not "all about scoring" as you said. The NBA is about defense. The Spurs & Heat won the last 4 titles by playing great defense.

Charlotte's winning percentage is .52% with MKG & .23% without him. That's drastic. Yeah, they're barely over .500 with him but guess what, he's only one man. 21-year-old LeBron wouldn't improve this team much over .500.

Just because the talking heads in ESPN or casual fans don't recognize him, he doesn't shoot 25 times a game, and doesn't have commercials like other guys doesn't mean he isn't an All-Star. That title is a joke. Kobe Bryant was the lead vote getter last year and he didn't even play.

MKG is one of the 5 best defensive players in the league and makes a drastic impact on his team's record. He is a star.

[cbarrier90]

MKG is in the mold of Scottie Pippen, a HOFer & one of the 50 greatest players in NBA history.

Pippen only averaged 20+ points 4 times & averaged 16 points for his career. He didn't reach 20 points until he was 26 years old. MKG is only 21. MKG only plays 26 mpg, of course he doesn't score a ton or have double doubles. If he played 36 minutes like most starters he'd be averaging a double double this year at age 21.

Pippen made his first All-Star Game at age 24, MKG is already as good as Pippen was then and he's only 21.

Per 36

Pippen, 24- 15 Pt, 6 Reb, 5 Ast, 2 Stl

M.K.G., 21- 14 Pt, 10 Reb, 3 Ast, 2 Stl

You are selling MKG short. You don't know that he'll never average 20 points. He's averaging 14 per 36 at age 21 when he just completely restructured his shot. Besides, even if he never hits 20 be is still a star. Dennis Rodman averaged 7 points a game for his career and he's one of the greatest forwards of all time & was a cornerstone of multiple championship teams in different cities.

And the NBA is not "all about scoring" as you said. The NBA is about defense. The Spurs & Heat won the last 4 titles by playing great defense.

Charlotte's winning percentage is .52% with MKG & .23% without him. That's drastic. Yeah, they're barely over .500 with him but guess what, he's only one man. 21-year-old LeBron wouldn't improve this team much over .500.

Just because the talking heads in ESPN or casual fans don't recognize him, he doesn't shoot 25 times a game, and doesn't have commercials like other guys doesn't mean he isn't an All-Star. That title is a joke. Kobe Bryant was the lead vote getter last year and he didn't even play.

MKG is one of the 5 best defensive players in the league and makes a drastic impact on his team's record. He is a star.

 

Both you and BP are correct in your MKG assessments.

 

I don't think anyone here is trying to discount what MKG is doing on the defensive end and I realize he deserves more respect than he gets nationally, but right now he is nothing more than a younger Tony Allen with an even worse shooting percentage and a higher ceiling. I have no doubt that with his work ethic he will continue to improve, but he's not close to the player we need him to be in order to take the next step forward. If it seems like I'm tougher on MKG, it's because he's the only one I see on the roster with a legitimate All-Star ceiling.

 

Defensive-specialist wings are valuable pieces to a contending team, but they aren't centerpieces, and going forward, MKG is clearly the best option of all the players we have drafted, and unless those prospects make tremendous strides, this team is going to be stuck with a bunch of defensive energy guys who can't put the ball in the hoop and the ceiling is going to be severely limited.

 

Again, everybody wants to talk about the young core, but when is the rubber going to meet the road, and when it does, where can this team realistically expect to be from year to year. We're limping our way to the finish line of a season in which we vastly overplayed our hand in terms of thinking we could take the next step so I'm a bit wary of if this crew can even take the next step at all.