Why is it that some of you huddlers are fixated on..

[teeray]

40 times don't really matter unless one of two things happen

A guy is unusually fast or unusually slow. Then you have to re-evaluate.

It is only one piece of the puzzle.

[MV%doe]

But no matter what you aren't playing long in the NFL without hands and route running. Technique and smarts get you open just as well if not better than pure speed.

Yea, its part of formula. Speed, routes, smarts, but brick hands you're just as worthless as hands, routes, smarts, but slow as turtle. Just get open and catch the ball, that's the name of the game. Out smart, better tech, quicker out of the brake, faster etc. Give the QB a target and catch it. then worry about yac and not fumbling.

Technique rules all in the nfl.

[MadHatter]

I have said the same thing. To extend your point, how many WRs whose speed is their most impressive attribute become elite WRs?

Very few.

Give me 4.55 and good hands any day.

Michael Irving said, "When are you going to run full speed anyway? The route starts after the break--that has nothing to do with 40 speed because the start is where most fast guys get the low numbers.

Exactly my friend.

That is why those working with coaches to lower their 40 times end up working mostly on the technique and reaction times for their starts. And that has nothing to do with football or being a good WR.

[jdpanther5]

I've seen countless of times were I read some of your comments and shake my head at the sheer stupidit.

Irony.

[MHS831]

Exactly my friend.

That is why those working with coaches to lower their 40 times end up working mostly on the technique and reaction times for their starts. And that has nothing to do with football or being a good WR.

 

My father caught 37 passes for USC during his sophomore year before blowing out his knee.  He ran a 4.9 back in the day before they passed on first and second down.  I played in college and he was my personal trainer and coach (had no choice) and he used to preach three things:

1. Setting up the db by trying to get his feet out of position as you go into your cut (speed not required).

2. Dropping your shoulder and snapping/exploding out of the cut

3. hand positioning and burst during the first 2 steps out of the cut

 

He said it is more chess game than race.  He constantly used Jerry Rice as his example, even before Rice was Jerry Rice.  He said, "That guy gets it."  He used to point at the TV during instant replays and make me notice the little nuances in his routes.  I was thinking "If he is that good, why didn't he go to a bigger school than Mississippi Valley State Tech community college?" 

 

Of course, he used to say this:  Hands are the most important thing because catching the ball is  job.  If you don't do that, getting open just embarrasses you more.  So hands, route running, blocking, speed are probably the order of importance.  Funny how teams overlook the first three.

[fjblair]

Everything about the combine is over hyped bullshit for the most part. Game film tells the tale, not a fuging high jump. It's a dog and pony show.

 

For that matter the draft is overrated and wildly unreliable as an indicator of actual NFL success. 

 

Mock draft? LOL

[ecu88]

My father caught 37 passes for USC during his sophomore year before blowing out his knee. He ran a 4.9 back in the day before they passed on first and second down. I played in college and he was my personal trainer and coach (had no choice) and he used to preach three things:

1. Setting up the db by trying to get his feet out of position as you go into your cut (speed not required).

2. Dropping your shoulder and snapping/exploding out of the cut

3. hand positioning and burst during the first 2 steps out of the cut

He said it is more chess game than race. He constantly used Jerry Rice as his example, even before Rice was Jerry Rice. He said, "That guy gets it." He used to point at the TV during instant replays and make me notice the little nuances in his routes. I was thinking "If he is that good, why didn't he go to a bigger school than Mississippi Valley State Tech community college?"

Of course, he used to say this: Hands are the most important thing because catching the ball is job. If you don't do that, getting open just embarrasses you more. So hands, route running, blocking, speed are probably the order of importance. Funny how teams overlook the first three.

Awesome post!

Even with my bias, Justin Hardy does all of those things well your dad preached. Catching the football is the number 1 job of a WR. Another aspect that many forget is that run blocking is just as important especially for Panthers offense.

[AceBoogie]

While I understand and agree with your premise, I had to look at some hard numbers.

Looking at the 40 times of the top 30 WRs of last season, there appears to be a correlation between 40 times and the top tiers of WRs.

My conclusion is that Nelson and Bryant are the exceptions and not the rule. Chances are, the top WR's are fast and not everyone is lucky enough to draft Jerry Rice or Larry Fitzgerald but will more than likely draft a sub 4.5 40 WR.

1. Antonio Brown - 4.47

2. Demaryius Thomas - 4.38

3. Julio Jones - 4.39

4. Jordy Nelson - 4.51

5. Emmanuel Sanders - 4.41

6. TY Hilton - 4.34

7. Golden Tate 4.42

8. Dez Bryant - 4.52

9. Jeremy Maclin - 4.45

10. Odell Beckahm, Jr. - 4.43

4.43 Average 40 time of Top 10

8 out of 10 WR are sub 4.5 (Nelson/Bryant)

11. Randall Cobb - 4.46

12. Deandre Hopkins - 4.41

13. DeSean Jackson - 4.35

14. Alshon Jeffrey - 4.48

15. Calvin Johnson - 4.35

16. Steve Smith Sr. - 4.39

17. Anquan Boldin - 4.71

18. Mike Evans - 4.53

19. AJ Green - 4.50

20. Kelvin Benjamin - 4.61

4.47 average 40 time of 11-20 WR

6 out of 10 WR are sub 4.5 (Boldin, Evans, Green, Benjamin)

21. Vincent Jackson - 4.46

22. Sammy Watkins - 4.43

23. Julian Edelman - 4.52

24. Eric Decker - 4.54

25. Brandon LaFell - 4.54

26. Rueben Randle - 4.55

27. Andre Johnson - 4.41

28. Kenny Stills - 4.38

29. Roddy White - 4.47

30. Marques Colston - 4.50

4.48 average 40 time of 21-30 WR

5 out of 10 RW are sub 4.5 (Edelman, Decker, LaFell, Randle, Colston)

This

[MHS831]

If Hardy had a good workout with the Panthers, I am guessing that he will be sitting higher on their board than most. His work ethic interests me.  I mean, if you look at all the WRs taken in 2004, eight in the first round (I think--it was considered the richest WR draft in draft history at the time), Wes Welker-, a hard-working, sure-handed, smallish route runner who went undrafted, is second only to Larry Fitzgerald in that draft class in terms of career production.  Welker wasn't drafted. 

 

 

[the butch]

Like the old saying goes, " you can't teach speed." The idea is that a player can develop awareness, hands, etc. as fans, therefore, we focus on speed, sometimes to the seeming exclusion of other attributes. The wise fan emphasizes 40 time in the context of overall talent without losing sight of overall skill. A lot of discussion gets hypfocused and dumbed down.

[KendrickPanther]

I think people that don't think 40 times matter are trying too hard to be smart. They do matter. Fast guys run by slow guys. Brandon Lafell, Philly Brown, and Kelvin Benjamin all timed slow and they all run slow. They have other qualities that make up for lack of long speed but their weakness is in fact speed. 

 

Joe Adams timed slow and everyone swore up and down he had football speed. Guess not.

[Udogg]

 

While I understand and agree with your premise, I had to look at some hard numbers.

Looking at the 40 times of the top 30 WRs of last season, there appears to be a correlation between 40 times and the top tiers of WRs.

 

My conclusion is that Nelson and Bryant are the exceptions and not the rule. Chances are, the top WR's are fast and not everyone is lucky enough to draft Jerry Rice or Larry Fitzgerald but will more than likely draft a sub 4.5 40 WR.

 

1. Antonio Brown - 4.47

2. Demaryius Thomas - 4.38 

3. Julio Jones - 4.39

4. Jordy Nelson - 4.51

5. Emmanuel Sanders - 4.41

6. TY Hilton - 4.34

7. Golden Tate 4.42

8. Dez Bryant - 4.52

9. Jeremy Maclin - 4.45

10. Odell Beckahm, Jr. - 4.43

 

4.43 Average 40 time of Top 10

8 out of 10 WR are sub 4.5 (Nelson/Bryant)

 

11. Randall Cobb - 4.46

12. Deandre Hopkins - 4.41

13. DeSean Jackson - 4.35 

14. Alshon Jeffrey - 4.48

15. Calvin Johnson - 4.35 

16. Steve Smith Sr. - 4.39

17. Anquan Boldin - 4.71

18. Mike Evans - 4.53

19. AJ Green - 4.50

20. Kelvin Benjamin - 4.61

 

4.47 average 40 time of 11-20 WR

6 out of 10 WR are sub 4.5 (Boldin, Evans, Green, Benjamin)

 

21. Vincent Jackson - 4.46 

22. Sammy Watkins - 4.43

23. Julian Edelman - 4.52 

24. Eric Decker - 4.54

25. Brandon LaFell - 4.54

26. Rueben Randle - 4.55

27. Andre Johnson - 4.41

28. Kenny Stills - 4.38

29. Roddy White - 4.47 

30. Marques Colston - 4.50

 

4.48 average 40 time of 21-30 WR

5 out of 10 RW are sub 4.5 (Edelman, Decker, LaFell, Randle, Colston)

 

 

I'm not sure why there are many post after this. Pretty much should have ended the thread.  Yes speed isn't a end all be all of measurables but it helps.  Speed also has a dramatic effect on coverages played.   Watch how Desean Jackson and TY Hilton are covered.  I mean, even looking at our team, look how much better the passing game looked once Philly got involved.   

 

[rayzor]

...

[csx]

I think people that don't think 40 times matter are trying too hard to be smart. They do matter. Fast guys run by slow guys. Brandon Lafell, Philly Brown, and Kelvin Benjamin all timed slow and they all run slow. They have other qualities that make up for lack of long speed but their weakness is in fact speed.

Joe Adams timed slow and everyone swore up and down he had football speed. Guess not.

Antonio Brown timed slow and plays really really fast. That's why the scouts only need to look at them play and not worry about the number.