Saints deal TE Jimmy Graham to Seahawks

[FugginPoo]

Brees loses his security blanket

[FootballMaestro]

Bunch of idiots trading him to Seattle.

They must feel they're not going to compete this year (still wouldn't do it though)?

What about the future Ain'ts?

 

Why to a contender (and recent Supe Bowl winner) in the same conference?

 

Just dumb to me!

 

I guess, now we'll find out if Graham is truly overrated (though short passing yards passing to a bigger target should help the diminutive and somewhat overrated Wilson).

[camycamcan]

Is it true drew is on the block

[PandaPancake]

This might sound dumb, means it probably will, when trading players I know that money is not changed but what about bonuses and contract language? Is a new contract signed? For example a number of players have a no motorcycle clause. Can the Seahawks add or remove clauses?

[jdpanther5]

This might sound dumb, means it probably will, when trading players I know that money is not changed but what about bonuses and contract language? Is a new contract signed? For example a number of players have a no motorcycle clause. Can the Seahawks add or remove clauses?

They can renegotiate, but unless they do everything remains constant.

Any signing/restructure bonuses already paid and amortized by the previous team immediately accelerates and impacts their cap. New team takes over responsibilities on any future workout/roster bonuses.

[ecu88]

This might sound dumb, means it probably will, when trading players I know that money is not changed but what about bonuses and contract language? Is a new contract signed? For example a number of players have a no motorcycle clause. Can the Seahawks add or remove clauses?

The contract is transferred with the player if not mistaken.

Basically the new team would probably have to make new contract to override the old contract

[AU-panther]

Ok serious question.

 

After the Seahawks pay RW, and now Graham...how the hell will they have money left?

 

 Because their top guys don't make as much as our top guys.

 

Top 5 cap hits for each team:

 

Panthers:

CJ -        $20m

Cam -     $14m

Kalil -     $11.7m

Davis -     $9.9m

Stewart -  $8.3m

 

http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/carolina-panthers

 

Seahawks

Sherman -  $12.2m

Lynch -       $8.5m

Bennett -    $8m

Avril -         $8m

Thomas -     $7.4m

http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/seattle-seahawks

 

It's called working the cap and not sitting back blaming your predecessor

 

If working the cap is drafting well and resigning your own players before they hit the open market so be it.

 

If you notice, one list above was inherited by a GM and one was not.

[gettlemanjack]

lot of worrying on Seahawk forums over this trade. One thing they worry about is whether they will even be able to use Graham effectively:

-Man..............I don't know about this, oline just took a huge hit with [C] Max [unger] gone and we have never been able to successfully implement a TE into our offense.................I don't really understand this.

-Our offensive line just got much weaker and given Bevell's inability to consistently utilize a tight end we just tied up $10 million/year on a player who will catch 50 passes a season max.

-I think you're being pretty generous with that number [of 50 catches for Graham]. I absolutely HATE this trade.

-we don't really know how to use a TE in the first place. Maybe his height would help Russ in the pocket, but beyond that I'm not confident after seeing Zach Miller go from a 60 catch TE to a 33 catch TE after getting here with Bevell at the helm.

-I think everyone would agree with me in that Bevell hasn't had tremendous success implementing the TE into our passing game so will that suddenly change? I do not believe so.

-I like the idea of adding a weapon like Graham, although I'm not sure we'll use him effectively, but what in the hell is the plan for the OL?

-If Bevell can't figure out how to use a guy like Graham, there really won't be any excuse to not let him move on. Graham should post about 60ish catches, 8-900 yards, and 10 TDs

-A lot of people here wonder about usage. While it's true that Graham probably won't post 1215 or 1310 receiving yards, he might still end up with 9,10,11 TDs.

-Do you think Graham wants to be here though? After the spat and the fact that he very likely won't get anywhere near the same amount of yards, it me wonder.

-Will Jimmy Graham be content not being a superstar anymore? Cause he aint gonna get the ball unless we are changing the offense. He might get three balls a game. He is used to 8 to ten targets a game minimum. How is that gonna work?

[gettlemanjack]

another thing SEA fans are worried about is the loss of their captain and perennial Pro Bowl C Max Unger. Remember, when we played them in the playoffs, they had Unger while we were without Star. If we meet again, we'll have Star while they will be without Unger. It wouldn't be as big a loss for them if they had solid OGs, but they don't

couple tweets from SEA players:

This one is a hard pill to swallow. A great player, a great teammate and a great man. Thank you @MaxUnger60 for everything!

— WR Doug Baldwin Jr (@DougBaldwinJr) March 10, 2015

Say it ain't so smh

— OG Alvin Bailey Jr. (@Bailey_67) March 10, 2015

comments from SEA fans:

-We averaged 200 rushing yards a game in the games Unger played compared to 150 without. . And 2.16 sacks per game with Unger compared to 2.9 per game without

-I seriously worry about our gameplan on the OL now. Russell already spent half the season on his ass--now we're getting rid of the anchor of our OL... all it takes is one guy getting through at a weird angle and Russell becomes "RG4". Do we really want to give them 55 sacks/chances a year at that?

-We averaged about 50 yards per game more rushing with Unger than any other center. We allowed less sacks per game with Unger than the other centers. ... Our current crop of guys are serviceable, but that is all. We need to address this situation quickly, be it through free agency or the draft. I don't doubt that [GM] Schneider has a plan, but we'll just have to wait and see what that is.

-I guess the question becomes whether you think Graham can have a bigger impact on our offensive output than Unger did. Does Graham's ability as a weapon outweigh Unger's run blocking and line calls?

-Not very happy about this deal, sure Graham is a great TE, but we will miss Unger

-Center is pretty important. Unger made the calls in the line and made the correct block calls.

-Not sure what to think of this. Who replaces Unger?

-Ah crap. Hate to see Unger go. We were much better with him in there than out.

-Losing Unger hurts, hope there is a back up plan at center. Not sure if this is an overall plus or overall minus.

-I'm not even sure what to think of this right now. Graham is great, sure, but Unger has been the one consistent bright spot on our OL (when healthy). Still trying to gather my thoughts.

-I'd be OK if Unger wasn't involved, he's our best O-lineman

-I like Graham's talent, but I'd rather not have just sent Unger packing without a viable replacement. Our offense was just better when he was out there.

-I like the talent that we are getting, but Center is often such an underrated position, especially in our system. Unger is responsible for making all the line calls

-our offense was better with Unger out there ... and a lot of that is Unger making Carpenter and Sweezy better.

-I'd be more excited about this if our O-line was already rock solid across the line, but it's not. But I will reserve final judgement after the rest of FA and the draft. I do expect us to go HARD offensive line in the draft.

-Looking at the tweets from the other olineman...............they do not seem too pleased with this transaction.

-If you want to utilize Jimmy Graham correctly you have to allow him time to run a route and get open. The problem of having less than adequate time for Russell to throw is only going to be enhanced by Unger (and Carpenter) not being in the mix. While it's awesome to have a guy of Graham's receiving ability in this offense unless they now somehow address the offensive line in a major way I don't like this move at all.

-This draft has some really good centers in it - Grasu, Dismukes, Gralik, Cameron Erving can be moved to center, Finney, etc. I'm sure the Seahawks staff will fill the void with someone who will be solid.

-1. Centers are not replaceable. Not when they're running Tom Cable's zone-blocking scheme. 2. Aforementioned scheme requires willing tight-end blockers. Graham isn't such a guy.

-for me, this feels like robbing our rushing offense for the sake of our passing offense.

-Really excited about the trade and have high hopes but also very anxious. Big name offensive weapons have come here before and died and Seattle's offensive line is now going through another major overhaul. Another high risk move by this front office and I lean more to the worried side than the confident and happy side.

-Percy Harvin part 2?

-Losing Unger sucks. ... Hope this doesn't backfire like the Percy Harvin trade.

[ctrcat]

^ and for any saints fans with hope, Star blew up Unger in his first game as a pro. Still miles better than what the seahawks have now to fend off our front 7.

[gettlemanjack]

of course, another reason SEA fans are upset with the trade is that they also gave up their 1st R pick (which should turn into another solid starter, who will be on a cheap contract) on top of eveything:

-Why the 1st as well? Meh, I need to digest this.

-Clearly Graham is a great player and you have to give up something to get him, but Max AND our 1st rounder?

-Unger AND a first rounder? this is the dumbest thing I have seen them do, if this happens. Please, don't do this

-I need some time to take this in. Initially, i like it because graham is premeier TE, but don't really love that we had to give up a pro-bowl center and a 1st rounder

-I have to digest this

-I hate this. So much. I hate this so much.

-Hell yeah, all of us just took an uppercut. How's you jaw doin?

-Woh woh woh. Did we get the Jimmy and a 1st Rder?

-I hate this ... If you were to pitch this to the board yesterday, I'd wager that 90% would be against it and I'm not going to convince myself otherwise. I got used to the way we did business - doing right by our guys, and we just sent a core guy to New Orleans along with our first draft pick for [Graham] ... I hope he prospers, we definitely needed a redzone target and Max Unger's inconsistent health was of some concern but it still isn't going to make me like this move. I sincerely hoping I'm so wrong you guys are forever reminding me though.

-Our running game went from solid to unstoppable when Unger was in. Dude knew the calls and he knew his blocking. The biggest question is, will Graham be worth losing our first-rounder AND resetting all Unger's experience (not a small thing at the center position)? ... Unger and a first? That's a big weight to balance out

-Man, this entire thing will come down to chemistry -- on the field and off. I neither hate nor love this deal right now. It's another swing for the fences that has some steep downside potential. .. That being said, Graham is basically the prototype of the big body weapon we've been pounding the table for.I don't love the fact that we surrendered a 1st yet again. It seems like we're routinely handing out high round picks while other teams are getting "name" players for 3rd/4th/5th/6th round picks. If Graham is truly worth a 1st to New Orleans, then they just wouldn't trade him

-I'm surprised Seattle had to give up a 1st yet again. ... Graham could've been had for a lesser pick. If a team truly values a guy as a "1st rounder" then they usually don't shop him around. They just keep him. The very fact that he was shopped suggests he was worth less to them than a 1st. We seem to be the only team willing to hand out 1st round picks for players who are being shopped. Meanwhile, the Jets get Brandon Marshall for a 5th (I know he's a couple years older, but still...). The only thing I will question about [GM] JS is his ability to negotiate in terms of draft comp. We routinely give up a lot (e.g. Whitehurst, Harvin, Graham, even Burley) and get very little when we're receiving picks (Flynn, Harvin, etc.). Meanwhile, teams like SF routinely make off like bandits in this department.

-purely from a dollar and cents perspective trading our 1st round pick for a second contract guy is a particularly poor decision with the new CBA. Just as a point of comparison, the Seahawks will be paying Jimmy Graham twice as much per year than the #1 overall pick in the draft this year will get.

-Hate giving up Unger but the Saints aren't morons. You have to give up quality to get it

-The Saints interestingly didn't have to pay too much to get Unger. My real issue with this trade, and this speaks to the "relax boys and girls, it's really only trading a first for a third pick" crowd: while the first round pick may be expensive to pay, and there may not have been a player our front office felt was worth it this year, look at what they've done before. Last year is a classic example of what we could have done with it. We turned our low first rounder into what, three guys? And still got the guy we were targeting. The net value may be the equivalent of dropping from first to third, but the true value is still a fourth rounder, and minus the value of a first rounder. I'd have felt much more comfortable with this trade if it had involved lower round picks for lower round picks. Pick #31 is worth 600 points. Pick #109 is worth 76 points. Sure, it's only a drop of 78 spots, but it's almost eight times less value in return. Value for picks is exponential. Pete and John do a fantastic job of wheeling and dealing in the draft to gain value, but lose it time and time again in trades. That's my real gripe with this trade

-Seattle's history of drafting with late 1sts is pretty terrible. Although it will hurt if Devin Smith is there at #31 (I'm guessing he'll be long gone).

-The trade is growing on me, but I still don't like it. I think we gave up too much in return for what we needed.

-The Saints could use the extra draft picks. What could you do in this draft with 2 first round picks ? hell trade ours back and pick up even more picks. That can be more impactful than Graham.

[gettlemanjack]

OverTheCap com:

"While the salary cap is always a concern for the Saints this is not a cap related move. Graham will now count for $9 million against the Saints cap due to that large bonus, a gain of just $2 million in space. ... the Saints will likely break even on the move (for 2015). They avoid $8 million in salary for Graham this season but will pick up $4.5 million for Unger and another $3.8 million in payments to their first round draft pick... This (also) will solve some future cap problems as Graham’s $12 million cap hit in 2016 will now vanish from the Saints' books.

..

My feeling is that the trade is more about a fear on Graham’s future and his less than expected play than anything else. ... I believe the Saints felt it was best to strike now before there is limited value later.

...

For Seattle ... from their financial perspective they will take on an $8 million cap hit for Graham this season, $9 million in 2016, and $10 million in 2017. None of the money after this season is guaranteed so they can cut Graham at any time if things did not work out. They will carry a $2.2 million dead charge for Unger and gain $3.4 million by trading him. That works out to a net cap loss of $7.6 million, and about $6.4 million once you factor the draft pick in.

Seattle has seemingly moved away from the model that they constructued their team with as this is their second major trade in three years to try to improve their receiver spot. The move for Percy Harvin ended up being one of the worst trades in recent memory and he was traded just one and a half years into his tenure. Seattle will hope this one pays off much more."

http://overthecap.com/saints-seahawks-working-blockbuster-trade-jimmy-graham/

Max Unger cap hit

2015 - $4,500,000 to N.O., $2,200,000 to SEA

2016 - $4,500,000 to N.O.

2017 - FA

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-orleans-saints/max-unger/

Jimmy Graham cap hit

2015 - $8,000,000 to SEA, $9,000,000 to N.O.

2016 - $9,000,000 to SEA

2017 - $10,000,000 to SEA

2018 - FA

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/seattle-seahawks/jimmy-graham/

[gettlemanjack]

compare to:

C Ryan Kalil's cap hit to CAR

2015 - $11,795,000 at age 30

2016 - $10,329,000 at age 31

2017 - $3,579,000 at age 32

2018 - $1,779,000 at age 33

2019 - FA

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/carolina-panthers/ryan-kalil/

[Zach Donaldson]

To be honest, this may be worse for us. I wasn't worried about the Saints at all for next season before this trade went through, but I was worried about Seattle. Now I'm terrified of Seattle.

Don't get me wrong, we can still beat Seattle. Though until we make a splash, it will be a lot more difficult.