Learn something from Bucky Brooks, couch GMs & casual fans

[JawnyBlaze]

I am curious to why some think the Patriots are so bad at drafting. According to two articles linked in this thread they actually do very well.

 

People who follow the draft and pay attention to all teams' drafts see who the Patriots are taking.  And they're often taking players that are bad.  Anybody can find stats to back an angle they want to push, and that's most likely what happened with those articles.  The Pats have been a perennially good team, so people assume they must draft well and they mold their findings to fit that.  If you go back and look at the Patriots drafts for the past 7 or so years (how long I've been following the draft), they miss FAR more than they hit, and they often miss in the high rounds. 

 

That USAToday article says their best draft class was Chandler Jones, Donta Hightower and Tavon Wilson.  That's pretty sad.  Jones and Hightower are solid players, but not great and I haven't even heard of the last guy.  Maybe he's good, I dunno.  I'm looking at the spreadsheet linked in the USAToday article, last year the only guy that's worth a poo that they got is Jamie Collins and they graded that year a 105 (a high grade) for them!  2012 was their "best" year and they got the three aforementioned guys and garbage in the rest of the draft.  2011 they got Solder, their starting LT who's middle of the league as far as I know, their two RBs (who are nothing special, a product of their system) and nothing else.  2010 they got two great players in McCourty and Gronk, but Gronk is hurt half the time.  Nothing else.  2009 their best player is Patrick Chung, a JAG, and Edelman (another product of their system). That's a pretty poor haul for a 5 year span. 

 

Compare their good players from that time (Jones, Hightower, Wilson (dunno, I'll give it to them),  Collins, Gronk, Solder, McCourty, Edelman, two RBs).  That's 10 players with 2 stars, 5 good players and 3 roleplayer JAGs that work for them.  Our players from that same time period (remember, Hurney was running 4 of the drafts): Star, Short, Klein, Kuechly, Norman, Cam, Lafell, Hardy, Munnerlyn.  (not gonna include guys like Nortman, a punter, or Alexander who we may think highly of but wouldn't be known much outside Carolina.)  That's 9 guys with 3 stars (Kuechly, Cam, Hardy), 3 good players (Star, Short, Norman) and 3 roleplayer JAGs that worked for us (Klein, Lafell, Munnerlyn).  I'll take ours over theirs any day, and 3 of the 9 came from 1 draft of Gettlemans and he did even better this past draft.  If you were to include the 2014 drafts to both teams, our group would destroy theirs.

 

[JawnyBlaze]

Something I noticed from that spreadsheet just now, they gave Cam a negative value.  Not only that, but they gave KUGBILA, DUKE ROBINSON, LAWRENCE WILSON, ZACHARY WILLIAMS and LEE ZIEMBA better values than Cam.  Completely invalidates the entire spreadshit (that was intentional).  I don't care if he was the #1 pick overall or not, he has been FAR more valuable than players that didn't even make it out of training camp.  The only player we've drafted with a poorer value than Cam, according to their values, was Nortman.  Craziness.

[top dawg]

I am curious to why some think the Patriots are so bad at drafting. According to two articles linked in this thread they actually do very well.

 

Actually it is three articles now.  People want to say the Patriots draft bad because they are haters.  The Patriots don't draft flashy players per se, but from the top down they do draft good players who have a good football IQ.  Plus, the proof is in the pudding.  

 

Bill Belichick takes a decent amount of criticism from Patriots fans for whiffing on several high picks (Patrick Chung, Ron Brace, Laurence Maroney, and Tavon Wilson among them) but overall he has done better than most of his contemporaries. The Patriots rank second for starters (16), T-1 in first-rounders (7), T-5 in starters from Rounds 5-7 (3), and T-3 in number of Pro Bowlers (7).

 

The Patriots still have two starters from every draft dating back to 2008, and struck gold with Tom Brady (sixth round), Vince Wilfork (first), Logan Mankins (first), Stephen Gostkowski (fourth), Jerod Mayo (first), Sebastian Vollmer (second), Julian Edelman (seventh), Devin McCourty (first), and Rob Gronkowski (second), among others.

 

 

It's not all about Brady as some people suggest.  I laugh at anyone trying to intimate that the Pats are putting trash put there on the field.  Sure, as a Panthers fan I would like to think that we are doing better, and perhaps that's true, but we won't know that for sure until years down the line.  In the meantime, the Patriot way---draft and all---will continue to roll.

 

Edit: And the cheating thing is just so convenient.  It's almost like a catchphrase for those who don't want to give them their due, as is the word "system".  Every team should have a "system" that affords them that level of success.  

 

I'm sure Brandon LaFell prefers their "system" to ours because it put him in a better opportunity to produce and win.

[KendrickPanther]

It depends on how far he went back on our draft. We did pretty well the past 2 years. We did ok in 2012. Before thatn there was a long stretch of monumental failures. And considering he's talking about long term success, it makes sense. 

 

Jeff Otah, Jimmy Clausen, Dwayne Jarret, and Everette Brown would be in their prime right now. If they had a prime. Not to mention all the picks we gave away in trades to teams like San Fran and New England to help them build their franchises.

[jasonluckydog]

I'm sorry I just read the 1st paragraph

[AU-panther]

People who follow the draft and pay attention to all teams' drafts see who the Patriots are taking. And they're often taking players that are bad. Anybody can find stats to back an angle they want to push, and that's most likely what happened with those articles. The Pats have been a perennially good team, so people assume they must draft well and they mold their findings to fit that. If you go back and look at the Patriots drafts for the past 7 or so years (how long I've been following the draft), they miss FAR more than they hit, and they often miss in the high rounds.

That USAToday article says their best draft class was Chandler Jones, Donta Hightower and Tavon Wilson. That's pretty sad. Jones and Hightower are solid players, but not great and I haven't even heard of the last guy. Maybe he's good, I dunno. I'm looking at the spreadsheet linked in the USAToday article, last year the only guy that's worth a poo that they got is Jamie Collins and they graded that year a 105 (a high grade) for them! 2012 was their "best" year and they got the three aforementioned guys and garbage in the rest of the draft. 2011 they got Solder, their starting LT who's middle of the league as far as I know, their two RBs (who are nothing special, a product of their system) and nothing else. 2010 they got two great players in McCourty and Gronk, but Gronk is hurt half the time. Nothing else. 2009 their best player is Patrick Chung, a JAG, and Edelman (another product of their system). That's a pretty poor haul for a 5 year span.

Compare their good players from that time (Jones, Hightower, Wilson (dunno, I'll give it to them), Collins, Gronk, Solder, McCourty, Edelman, two RBs). That's 10 players with 2 stars, 5 good players and 3 roleplayer JAGs that work for them. Our players from that same time period (remember, Hurney was running 4 of the drafts): Star, Short, Klein, Kuechly, Norman, Cam, Lafell, Hardy, Munnerlyn. (not gonna include guys like Nortman, a punter, or Alexander who we may think highly of but wouldn't be known much outside Carolina.) That's 9 guys with 3 stars (Kuechly, Cam, Hardy), 3 good players (Star, Short, Norman) and 3 roleplayer JAGs that worked for us (Klein, Lafell, Munnerlyn). I'll take ours over theirs any day, and 3 of the 9 came from 1 draft of Gettlemans and he did even better this past draft. If you were to include the 2014 drafts to both teams, our group would destroy theirs.

The USAToday article used PFF scores and took draft positions into account when assigning values. The Boston Globe article http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/05/01/which-nfl-teams-have-been-best-draft-lately/H5mBGyXErkXptvVPFzg9TM/story.html used some simplerer metrics to determine sucess, such as starters drafted. In this scenario the Pats have done well also. For example they ranked second in the league in drafted starters. Considering they are one of the best teams in the league that alone tells you they aren't "terrible" at drafting.

I am not trying to turn this into an us vs them argument. Personally, I am quite happy with our past few drafts but the fact is blanket statements that the Pats are terrible at drafting is a bit misinformed and reckless.

[JARROD]

Hey Bucky--

 

Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat,..

 

AGAIN??

 

Nothing up my sleeve,...

 

Presto,...

 

Good lord,.. what a novel idea-- draft well and have a perennial team as long as you have good stable coaching,.... 

 

 

[MHS831]

 

 

If you notice, the author shows how uninformed he is by dissing the Panthers' drafts, but at the same time he gives Cam Newton props (perhaps underhandedly, but maybe not).  He and G-man believe that Cam is the real deal---certainly good enough to get the job done, provided that the rest of the talent and depth are put into place.

Another excellent thread, Dawg.  I see your name and I read. 

 

I think Hurney's last years, from Otah, to Brown, to Clausen/Edwards, gave us a bad rep for drafting.  Then there was the McClain/Fua. 

 

If you look at it that way, and you look at the fact that we only had 5 picks in 2013 and (technically) 6 in 2014, it may be too early for him to judge. 

 

Gettlemen has made 1 questionable pick in the first five rounds of each draft--something I find remarkable.  And, if Kugbila somehow finds he was off IR and onto the field, that could change.

 

[tiger7_88]

If you notice, the author shows how uninformed he is by dissing the Panthers' drafts, but at the same time he gives Cam Newton props (perhaps underhandedly, but maybe not).  He and G-man believe that Cam is the real deal---certainly good enough to get the job done, provided that the rest of the talent and depth are put into place.

 

If he was referring to more than the last 2 years, say more like 7 to 8 years (which is a reasonable amount of time to build a self-sustaining franchise like the ones being described in your post), he's not incorrect though.

[MHS831]

I think you should get pie from everyone for using "plethora"

[tiger7_88]

I think you should get pie from everyone for using "plethora"

 

Would "a veritable cornucopia" get pie???

[MV%doe]

Pats have been awful at drafting, four things cover that. They always have more/future picks, so 12 pick and only hit on 3 is awful year after year. Go back and look at each year, full of mid-round busts.

The division is terrible. For nearly 15 years they go either 6-0 or 5-1 against divisonal foes.

Having a all time great QB covers lots of weaknesses.

Bill is a master gameplanner. Bill could beat jets, switch rosters and beat the pats. His football IQ is off the charts, losing coaches each year and nothing changes. Hes the best HC by far, all the other old HC didn't have to deal with the cap or free agency. Bill has less talent than other top teams, losing star players to IR, and starts street FAs (WRs and CBs) in the same week...... bill still gets 12 wins a season and has a great playoff record.

[top dawg]

If he was referring to more than the last 2 years, say more like 7 to 8 years (which is a reasonable amount of time to build a self-sustaining franchise like the ones being described in your post), he's not incorrect though.

 

Perhaps I am being a homer, and I know it's still probably too early to make a judgment, but I believe that it was perhaps a little misguided---if not unfair---to ascribe the words "drafted poorly" to the Panthers in light of the last couple of drafts, but if you go back to 2010 (which Brooks did, mind you, not The Globe guy), we still have at least Cam, Luke and Norman starting. And I don't believe that the book has been written on either Silatolu or Kugzilla either (even though, admittedly, this may be a stretch), but both could at least provide some quality depth.  That being said, I would think that we were more mediocre than poor.  Although we haven't been as good as the Pats or Hawks, and maybe some of the others over a long stretch, we are surging at the right time. Our needle is on the way up, and it's not only because of Cam, though he arguably has masked many of our deficiencies since he has been here. 

[MHS831]

Pats have been awful at drafting, four things cover that. They always have more/future picks, so 12 pick and only hit on 3 is awful year after year. Go back and look at each year, full of mid-round busts.

The division is terrible. For nearly 15 years they go either 6-0 or 5-1 against divisonal foes.

Having a all time great QB covers lots of weaknesses.

Bill is a master gameplanner. Bill could beat jets, switch rosters and beat the pats. His football IQ is off the charts, losing coaches each year and nothing changes. Hes the best HC by far, all the other old HC didn't have to deal with the cap or free agency. Bill has less talent than other top teams, losing star players to IR, and starts street FAs (WRs and CBs) in the same week...... bill still gets 12 wins a season and has a great playoff record.

 

Very interesting--I have had the same thoughts.  Brady solves a lot.  Had he not grabbed Brady, would we even know his name?  They have played in a pretty weak division for years, they have a qb who makes average good and good great, and they have the benefit of BB's game planning.

 

BB gets cute when it comes to the draft.  It backfires a lot, but he always has (as you said) 10 picks, so if three or four catch fire, he looks good.  The Pats are always big in free agency.  When you have free agents coming in due to Brady, Brady taking a pay cut to win, etc.  It is hard to lose.  Historically, for whatever reason, players have accepted below market to play there.