The Shula hate is overblown.

[CarolinaSamurai]

Oh I have been right here reading posts like yours all season. And trust me I don'tt need any help from you. The difference is that my opinions are informed by facts and are based on those who are experts and know football much better than I do. Unlike folks like you who can't prove what they are saying and hide behind the veil of being lazy.

There are also well thought out and informed posts on this board from a litany of people on why so many believe Shula is a bad OC. Some of which from Igo and other high quality posters on here.

So many posts about Shula and there are well researched points on both sides. The difference is how each person interprets the information. Don't say all the people who say Shula is bad are ill informed, a lot of us are well informed and have over the course of the seasons layout why we believe what we do.

After a while you get tired of showing the same facts and information. Two sides of the argument exist and the facts people show support their side of the argument only.

So we disagree, stop belittling someone else's point because you disagree. It makes you look foolish.

[panthers55]

In 2011 we had the 27th ranked defense. In 2012 Chud was far too reliant on the read option at first and Ron went full retard every close game.

I enjoy reading your posts in general but some of your opinions on the offensive side of the ball I just cannot agree with.

That is fair, I don't expect to be popular when I take the opposite side of what is popular here. And for what it is worth I am not always crazy about what Shula does or think we couldn't do better honestly. I was glad he was retained in 2013 because I feared Cam would regress learning a new system or being treated like Kaepernick in San Fran. But I could move on and be happy with someone else. I just defend him when I fel he is being attacked unfairly with no facts to support it. As the attacks became more negative and in my mind unwarranted, so did my defense. It is how I roll. I don't like seeing people attacked without proof and am usually on the side of the underdog. That is how I saw him this year and that is why I defended him.

[332nd]

Thats not hilarious at all.

It is when people try to gloss over that fact.

[panthers55]

There are also well thought out and informed posts on this board from a litany of people on why so many believe Shula is a bad OC. Some of which from Igo and other high quality posters on here.

So many posts about Shula and there are well researched points on both sides. The difference is how each person interprets the information. Don't say all the people who say Shula is bad are ill informed, a lot of us are well informed and have over the course of the seasons layout why we believe what we do.

After a while you get tired of showing the same facts and information. Two sides of the argument exist and the facts people show support their side of the argument only.

So we disagree, stop belittling someone else's point because you disagree. It makes you look foolish.

The overwhelming number of so called high quality posts about Shula referred to his days as an OC a decade ago including those made by the posters you named. I have seen very few which use an even hand or portray him in what I believe is a fair manner. Most every post went in with a clear agenda and only used the information which supported their already formed opinionated while there were countless posts excusing Cam because he didn't have the players he needed to be effective, those same posters would then castigate Shula as the problem without given him the same benefit of the doubt they gave Cam.

Threads today were one of the first times I saw posters show more balance and actually say what I have said all along which is that Shula did a good job with what he had to work with. Now Rivera and to some extent Gettleman has suggested the same thing. Which just supports what I have said all along.

And again you miss my point. I am not belittling your point just asking you to prove with facts what informs your opinion. I do it all the time and only ask you do the same. Otherwise you are the one without credibility not me,

[332nd]

Cam Newton has finished 15th, 15th, 16th and 26th in his 4 year career in NFL passer rating.

I have no problem attributing part of his fall from mediocre to atrocious on the offensive line and WR's.

Yet you want to give Shula, who's never been anything other than mediocre to atrocious, a pass because...?

[DaveThePanther2008]

Actually Shula was hired to maintain continuity and continue to help Newton grow since they have a good relationship and Newton is way ahead of where folks felt he would be at this point in his career.

We didn't want to turn Newton into Alex Smith part 2 by switching systems. Rivera said at the time that Shula had the best idea how to use Cam and build around him.

Now you could argue that going into year 5 he doesn't need the continuity and could handle a different system.

As to your point, he simplified the language in the play calling to help Newton with adjustments and audibles. But no he wasn't there to improve Chud's playbook and without seeing it, how would you know they are completely different.? The concepts look rather similar to me actually based on play calling.

They didn't have to promote him to OC for him to keep the continuity. While I agree he has had a good relationship with Cam he could have done that as a QB coach. And I also agree he also simplified the language but he was also retained because he knew the playbook and that wasn't going to change(except changing the language). Regardless, whatever he did with the offense is absolutely terrible.

We suck in the red zone. He consistently makes bad calls on 3rd down. He has no imagination and has no idea how to maximize Cam's ability.

Those that say Shula has a winning record compared to Chudz should remember our defense was far better in 2013 and 2014 compared to 2011-2012.

I want to see someone with an imagination come in and utilize Cam as a special commodity instead of just another QB in this league.

[Kevin Greene]

Stats year to year, meh.

Shula is an 18 car pileup as a game day play caller.

[Kevin Greene]

these are two sides of the argument: one is a well thought out researched piece and the other is four words 

 

 

The four words applied common sense.

[panthers55]

Lmao dude you got some serious issues. You sound like one of those guys who have to be right all the time or you're either a troll. "My opinions better than your opinion", are you kidding me right now? That's what you sound like. Go ahead and mark another tally for your e-cred man, bravo well done.

And what really pisses off people like you is that I usually am right. My opinions are informed by fact and I can easily back up anything I say or I won't say it. Can you find contrary facts? Yep. The whole point of a discussion.

That is what I thought a message board was for and what this used to be. Informed discussion based on facts not off the wall opinions and innuendo with nothing to back them up. Somehow this forum has gone from a great place to find informed intelligent discussion to a bunch of guys bitching and moaning with no logic or well thought rationale for why they think like they do.

[Chimera]

The Panthers finished 2011 at number 5 in scoring offense...Chud's system had really never been seen before in the NFL...teams were unprepared for it...didn't know how to react...

 

By year two, 2012 we had fallen to 18th and Chud was "full-retard".

 

In year 1 with Shula we were 18th.

 

In year 2 with Shula we were 19th.

 

You don't actually watch games, do you?

 

in 2011, chud ran a classic air coryell for most of the season. it requires a power running game (more on that in a bit) and we were the first team in the history of the nfl to have three rushers hit the 700 yard mark. run game was clicking. it set up all the beautiful downfield throws to smitty. if naanee had any talent whatsoever, we could have easily finished .500 or better. towards the end of the season, chud started mixing in the zone read and read option.

 

neither the coryell nor the read option were exactly ground breaking

 

 

What happened in 2012 that could have led to a drop in scoring?

 

1 - ryan kalil, you know, that all-pro center.... he was on IR

 

2 - chud installed the read option as our base offense. **that's why he was full retard** remember rushing for negative yardage in week 1?  (important in running chud's offense... remember my point above?) if the saints hadn't had the worst defense in history, we probably would have started that season 1-9 instead of 2-8. you can't run the coryell without a running game. the read option base offense will not give you the running game chud needed.

 

3 - we replaced jeremy shockey, who was known for his hands but was a very good blocking tight end, with mike tolbert.

 

4 - we returned to the pro-style offense in the second half of the season. look at the difference in scoring between the first half of the season and the second half.

 

5- stewart missed half the season.

 

6 - louis murphy started 5 games

 

7 - we had the hardest schedule in the nfl that year

 

 in year 1 with Shula, subtract the defensive touchdowns. we then fall to 23rd in OFFENSIVE scoring

[MedellinHeel]

Id take Chud in nano second over Shula. Shula has never and will never in his life even sniff a top 5 offense. Hell top 10 would also be a stetch for Shula. 

 

 

[Chimera]

I don't want either, actually. Chud had creativity but he also lacked situational awareness. Didn't he admit that he called plays without paying attention to down and distance or available personnel?

[CarolinaCoolin]

Yes some of the Shula hate is overblown.

But he has been woefully inept in the red zone, you cannot sugar coat that, and it has to change or he should be fired.

Definitely agree

[panthers55]

They didn't have to promote him to OC for him to keep the continuity. While I agree he has had a good relationship with Cam he could have done that as a QB coach. And I also agree he also simplified the language but he was also retained because he knew the playbook and that wasn't going to change(except changing the language). Regardless, whatever he did with the offense is absolutely terrible.

We suck in the red zone. He consistently makes bad calls on 3rd down. He has no imagination and has no idea how to maximize Cam's ability.

Those that say Shula has a winning record compared to Chudz should remember our defense was far better in 2013 and 2014 compared to 2011-2012.

I want to see someone with an imagination come in and utilize Cam as a special commodity instead of just another QB in this league.

I think our defense was better in 2013 and 2014 in,part because of Shula not in spite of him. His ball control offense flipped the field more often than not giving the defense time to rest and more field to defend. His approach limited the other's team offensive opportunities. We had much fewer 3 and outs under Shula versus Chud. Sure Chud's offense had plenty of big plays but it also had a bunch of quick series which didn't flip the field.

I agree we were bad in the redzone but don't think it was play calling alone. Each year as Cam has run less in the redzone to keep from sustaining injuries our offense in the redzone decreased. That was under Chud as well as Shula. Last year was somewhat masked by Tolbert picking up the slack. But this year with Tolbert hurt, no offensive line, cam unable to run much of the year, and no redzone receivers to speak of besides Benjamin and Olsen, what would you expect? We didn't have anyone who could get the tough yards so of course we struggled.

Don't get me wrong, our front seven are good no doubt, but it isn't coincidental that our offense and defense both seemed to improve at the same time. They feed off each other much more so under Shula than Chud IMO.