'Xs and Os' vs 'Jimmys and Joes'

[magnus]

With Dave Gettleman declining to step on Ron Rivera's toes in regard to his staff,

that's delicately worded, but kinda skews toward "Dave Gettleman really really wants to agree with us, and believes we're right, but he can't".  I don't think we know that to be true. 

Absolutely, if Rivera were in consideration to show how to turn things around, and they needed turned around, he and Gettleman would agree on some changes needed.   GMs and owners do leverage change, almost for change's sake if nothing else.  

 

But we really don't have evidence of that being true, do we?   

 

I mean, I know that after everyone reads four times a week "we must fire ________" that it seems foregone but that doesn't mean anyone making those decisions automatically agrees.  Quite the opposite most times. 

 

 

 

 

 

And then there's the undrafted pool, from whom we got two solid contributors and some other potentials this past year.  Gettleman stated his approach to college free agents is to target a small number of players that the team really likes rather than signing two dozen guys and hoping a few of them turn into something.  I like the idea of that.  Look forward to seeing if we can get more out of it.

I absolutely loved that particular bit of insight, and while giving info on his process, it's still something that should help, not hinder, UDFA signings. 

[Snake]

Peyton has a Frankenstein rebuilt neck and can't throw anymore......

See Jim Caldwell. Easy.

And the NFL is tough. Winning Super Bowl also requires some luck regardless.

 

Well if 4,727 yards this year is "cant throw anymore" than I guess Aaron Rogers is washed up too. Or your wrong but that could not be it.

[KendrickPanther]

Charles Godfrey 2014, never forget.

[Mr. Scot]

that's delicately worded, but kinda skews toward "Dave Gettleman really really wants to agree with us, and believes we're right, but he can't".  I don't think we know that to be true. 

 

Absolutely, if Rivera were in consideration to show how to turn things around, and they needed turned around, he and Gettleman would agree on some changes needed.   GMs and owners do leverage change, almost for change's sake if nothing else.  

 

But we really don't have evidence of that being true, do we?   

 

I mean, I know that after everyone reads four times a week "we must fire ________" that it seems foregone but that doesn't mean anyone making those decisions automatically agrees.  Quite the opposite most times.

 

Not really meant to imply anything in particular, honestly.  Just making a statement of what he did (or in this case, didn't).

 

Comments from both Gettleman and Rivera would indicate they've had some "frank discussions" of late.  Wouldn't surprise me if some of them were about staff performance, but there's no way to know for sure so it's all speculation.

 

Per both men, the true "evaluation" process takes place in the next few weeks.  I'm not expecting any changes, but who knows?

 

One thing I do know: Even if Gettleman and Rivera were at each other's throats worse than Baalke and Harbaugh, I doubt we'd know about it.  the Panthers are a team that keeps a very tight lid on their internal works.

 

 

I absolutely loved that particular bit of insight, and while giving info on his process, it's still something that should help, not hinder, UDFA signings. 

 

And I think it's the right approach.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of teams that don't put much stock in UDFAs, but I'm glad we do.

[Delhommey]

There's only 1 coach since 1957 who's led Alabama to a losing season.

 

There's only 2 coaches to leave Alabama with a losing record in the last 114 years.

 

[emhoward]

Jimmy and Joe's and it's not even close to me..,

I been thinking about this, but the idea isn't fully fleshed out so feel free to poke holes in it...

Their seems to be two ways to build a team: balance; both sides of the ball being good, or one side of the ball being elite and the other being average.

I believe that this team is built to be elite on one side of the ball and above average/average on the other. In fact I think if you took the best OC in the league and put him on our team I don't think we'd reach the "good" level, (offensive ranking: 1-5 elite, 5-10 good, 10-14 above avg., 14-18 avg, 18-23 below avg, 23-27 bad, 27-32 terrible). Why? B/c most of our talent is on the other side of the football.

We have no elite players on O, 1 if you count Olsen this year. We have 4 good players. Cam, Kalil, KB and healthy Stew. Everyone else is average or unproven.

We have 2 elite players on D at least; Davis and Luke. We had 3 with Hardy last year, and 4 when Johnson is healthy. Then we have players in Star, KK, Dwan, Norman who I would consider as good. This is a notable difference.

Their is no team in the league that is elite on both sides of the ball, it's nearly impossible.

Their are rarely any teams that are elite on one side of the ball and good on the other (depending on what type stats you use)

So you usually have 3 types of contending teams...

Elite on O, above avg/avg on D -- Colts/Packers/Pats

Elite on D, above avg/avg on O --

Seattle, Us

Good on both-- Dallas, Baltimore (Super Bowl year)

Now as Gettlemen stated, he believes defense when championships, so it seems to me, though we will get Cam help on the offensive side of the ball, we will continue to make sure our defense has the opportunity to be elite.

This idea is why I think some of the Shula hate is unwarranted...some. He is average and sometimes below average, but as I stated earlier if someone new was brought in, he'd wouldn't get us to the "good" level. The only way to get us to "good" is to draft good players on offense.

Which gets us to the question presented by the OP. And the answer is Jimmy's and Joes.

Chuck Pagano's defense stinks (at least it did in the reg. season) but why? He was a defensive coordinator? It's because the Jimmys and Joes are all on the offensive side of the ball.

Jim Harbaugh is an offensive mind, but it's the defense that had him in 3 consecutive conf. Championship games. Why? B/c Willis, Bowman, and the Smith bros don't play offense.

Bill belicheat is a defensive mind yet the Patroits have been known for their offense for the last decade.

Did Dick Lebeau forget how to coach defense or did the Steelers start to invest more on Offense side of the ball, as well as Troy P and James Harrison slowing down.

In summary X's and O's can take you one level up, from terrible to bad or average to above average. But players can take your from bad to elite. We saw it here in one offseason.

We went from a horrible offense in 2010 to a good one in 2011, and it wasn't because of Chud, it was because of Cam.

Lastly just think about the differences in the process of finding a new coach vs drafting new players. Organizations take a couple weeks to find their coach of the future, but for the draft they take months, employing dozens of scouts and sending them all around the country to find the right Jimmy's and Joe's. I think that shows which one is deemed more vital.

An elite coach can't make a bad team look good. Aka: Bill Belichiek wouldn't have Jacksonville in the playoffs.

But an elite roster can make a bad coach look good... Mike Smith a couple years ago..

[CRA]

Well if 4,727 yards this year is "cant throw anymore" than I guess Aaron Rogers is washed up too. Or your wrong but that could not be it.

Manning can't throw anymore.....he beats teams presnap, with his head and accuracy. He is one of the GOAT.

But he is a shell of what he was physically. He happens to be the smartest guy on the field....which is why his team wins. He can't throw though....give him a window and he can't get it done. Can't put anything on a ball. All his have to be anticipation and to a spot for a WR to go get

Not sure how you equate Manning being at the end of his career with Rodgers who is the best in the game currently

Manning's arm is weak. Probably the weakest of all starters this year. Was weak last year too. Why he probably retires now.

[Mr. Scot]

Jimmy and Joe's and it's not even close to me..,

I been thinking about this, but the idea isn't fully fleshed out so feel free to poke holes in it...

Their seems to be two ways to build a team: balance; both sides of the ball being good, or one side of the ball being elite and the other being average.

I believe that this team is built to be elite on one side of the ball and above average/average on the other. In fact I think if you took the best OC in the league and put him on our team I don't think we'd reach the "good" level, (offensive ranking: 1-5 elite, 5-10 good, 10-14 above avg., 14-18 avg, 18-23 below avg, 23-27 bad, 27-32 terrible). Why? B/c most of our talent is on the other side of the football.

We have no elite players on O, 1 if you count Olsen this year. We have 4 good players. Cam, Kalil, KB and healthy Stew. Everyone else is average or unproven.

We have 2 elite players on D at least; Davis and Luke. We had 3 with Hardy last year, and 4 when Johnson is healthy. Then we have players in Star, KK, Dwan, Norman who I would consider as good. This is a notable difference.

Their is no team in the league that is elite on both sides of the ball, it's nearly impossible.

Their are rarely any teams that are elite on one side of the ball and good on the other (depending on what type stats you use)

So you usually have 3 types of contending teams...

Elite on O, above avg/avg on D -- Colts/Packers/Pats

Elite on D, above avg/avg on O --

Seattle, Us

Good on both-- Dallas, Baltimore (Super Bowl year)

Now as Gettlemen stated, he believes defense when championships, so it seems to me, though we will get Cam help on the offensive side of the ball, we will continue to make sure our defense has the opportunity to be elite.

This idea is why I think some of the Shula hate is unwarranted...some. He is average and sometimes below average, but as I stated earlier if someone new was brought in, he'd wouldn't get us to the "good" level. The only way to get us to "good" is to draft good players on offense.

Which gets us to the question presented by the OP. And the answer is Jimmy's and Joes.

Chuck Pagano's defense stinks (at least it did in the reg. season) but why? He was a defensive coordinator? It's because the Jimmys and Joes are all on the offensive side of the ball.

Jim Harbaugh is an offensive mind, but it's the defense that had him in 3 consecutive conf. Championship games. Why? B/c Willis, Bowman, and the Smith bros don't play offense.

Bill belicheat is a defensive mind yet the Patroits have been known for their offense for the last decade.

Did Dick Lebeau forget how to coach defense or did the Steelers start to invest more on Offense side of the ball, as well as Troy P and James Harrison slowing down.

In summary X's and O's can take you one level up, from terrible to bad or average to above average. But players can take your from bad to elite. We saw it here in one offseason.

We went from a horrible offense in 2010 to a good one in 2011, and it wasn't because of Chud, it was because of Cam.

Lastly just think about the differences in the process of finding a new coach vs drafting new players. Organizations take a couple weeks to find their coach of the future, but for the draft they take months, employing dozens of scouts and sending them all around the country to find the right Jimmy's and Joe's. I think that shows which one is deemed more vital.

An elite coach can't make a bad team look good. Aka: Bill Belichiek wouldn't have Jacksonville in the playoffs.

But an elite roster can make a bad coach look good... Mike Smith a couple years ago..

 

Reminds me of a quote from Brian Billick some years back when he was prepping to face Tony Dungy's Colts.

 

Billick said "How ironic is it for the football gods to give me this defense and Tony Dungy that offense?"

 

[Growl]

Breaking news out of South and North Carolina today as hundreds of members of the website known as 'Carolina Huddle' have all committed suicide in the wake of Carolina Panthers general manager Dave Gettleman's comments today that he prefers quality over quanity when drafting. Some members reportedly removed their shirts and carved the words "TRADE DOWN" across their bare chests prior to committing the act.

[magnus]

Not really meant to imply anything in particular, honestly.  Just making a statement of what he did (or in this case, didn't).

 

Comments from both Gettleman and Rivera would indicate they've had some "frank discussions" of late.  Wouldn't surprise me if some of them were about staff performance, but there's no way to know for sure so it's all speculation.

 

Per both men, the true "evaluation" process takes place in the next few weeks.  I'm not expecting any changes, but who knows?

 

One thing I do know: Even if Gettleman and Rivera were at each other's throats worse than Baalke and Harbaugh, I doubt we'd know about it.  the Panthers are a team that keeps a very tight lid on their internal works.

 

 

 

And I think it's the right approach.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of teams that don't put much stock in UDFAs, but I'm glad we do.

I doubt either man is at each other's throats, but we did sit through Hurney and Fox beaming about Jimmy Clausen after the media watched them unable to sit near each other at ...I can't remember, the combine?  shrine bowl practices?   Hard to say.  It came out after Fox had gone, because the media blows. 

 

But, I doubt it.  Seems like they work together.  My interpretation is, Dave's saying that's Ron's job.  It's only Dave's job to intervene when it reaches critical mass.   I'm not happy with everything, I have what I'd do, but it's not mine. 

 

I think that's the thing, there are a massive amount of people unbelievably unhappy because the team didn't do exactly what they want, completely torn between what the pros of their own team believe and what they believe themselves. 

[Mr. Scot]

I doubt either man is at each other's throats, but we did sit through Hurney and Fox beaming about Jimmy Clausen after the media watched them unable to sit near each other at ...I can't remember, the combine?  shrine bowl practices?   Hard to say.  It came out after Fox had gone, because the media blows. 

 

But, I doubt it.  Seems like they work together.  My interpretation is, Dave's saying that's Ron's job.  It's only Dave's job to intervene when it reaches critical mass.   I'm not happy with everything, I have what I'd do, but it's not mine. 

 

I think that's the thing, there are a massive amount of people unbelievably unhappy because the team didn't do exactly what they want, completely torn between what the pros of their own team believe and what they believe themselves. 

 

I actually think Gettleman and Rivera legitimately get along, though I'd be willing to bet they can have some strong disagreements from time to time just based on prior comments and their respective personalities. 

 

If they actually don't get along, then they do an extremely good job of hiding it.

 

But yeah, it is true that we had no clue about the Fox and Hurney tension when that was going on.  And if you believe Bill Rosinski, there's the story that Jerry Richardson forbade Jeff Davidson from even speaking to Smitty (I've gone back and forth many times on whether I buy that story or not)  Plus, ironically enough, the tension between Fox (again) and Elway wasn't widely known about till Jay Glazer blew the lid off it, likely on Fox's tip.

 

On the flipside, the 49ers drama was all over the internet despite plenty of denial from within the organization.  And the Raiders have had plenty of 'soap opera' moments over the years.   The Cowboys, Bengals, Redskins and others have seen their share of drama from time to time as well. 

 

I guess the reality is just that some organizations are just better at keeping their business out of the press than others.

[panthers55]

I don't think it is coaching versus good personnel but good coaching maximizing your potential which the coaches did. Coaching can only develop what you have on the team to begin with. Poor players can become marginal, marginal players can become functional,functional players can become playmakers, etc.

it takes both talent and coaching to be successful. If Rivera and company can take scrubs, projects and rookies and turn them into a playoff team by year's end, I look forward to what we can do if we have a much better players to,start with. With a better crop in 2013 we went 12-4. If we can duplicate that talent level in. 2015,there is no reason to believe we can't be that successful again.

[magnus]

I think on a rewatch this whole thread really skews more to special teams than it does offense, doesn't it? 

[Mr. Scot]

I think on a rewatch this whole thread really skews more to special teams than it does offense, doesn't it? 

 

Of the two phases, I think the special teams coaching has been worse.

 

That said, Rivera pointed out that their worst ST games came after some of their better personnel got hurt, and Gettleman acknowledged that as a valid point.  And of course there's the 'philosophical change' planned for this season.