Bruce Brewski's Cold Hard Facts:Training Camp Aug. 20

[kungfoodude]

I would not have thought my training camp observations would have sparked such debate.

lol. How hard is it to stir up a Jake Delhomme debate, really?

[PantherBrew]

lol. How hard is it to stir up a Jake Delhomme debate, really?

Well the thing is. All the arguments are the same.

Panther fan 1: Jake Sucks.

Panther fan 2: he took us to a Super Bowl.

Panther Fan 1: Jake Sucks, We need someone else.

Panther Fan 2: Who else is there?

Panther Fan 1: Anybody!

this how it goes. Since 2004.

[Udogg]

pretty much ...

Anyway he normally sucks during preseason. He looked really bad 2 seasons ago until like the last 2 series of the 3rd preseason game and the 1st series of 4th game. He started the season out with 8 tds 1 int and I was like OMG, this could be it. Then his elbow blew out. I thinks someone else said it, he's like a box of chocolates.

[rippadonn]

I'm a Jake supporter but this year will make or break him in my eyes.

[rippadonn]

I kinda understand their philosophy though especially watching Peyton Manning play tonight. All 32 teams can't have an elite QB and about 5 do. They're not that easy to find or draft. ATL got lucky with Ryan but we'll see...

Kurt Warner was bagging groceries. That's how much the science of picking an NFL QB has progressed in the last 20yrs.

[DaCityKats]

I'm a Jake supporter but this year will make or break him in my eyes.

:yesnod:

[The Link]

yeah if he f**ks up in a game pull him please...look how mcnabb came back after he got pulled.led his team to the nfc championship game.

Fox will never, under any circumstances, pull Jake from a game. The Arizona game should be proof of that.

[goodlay]

Exactly. If Jake is stinking it up, how does anyone else know there is no better option? How can you know McCown or Moore will be bad? You don't! If you put McCown in and there's no improvement, you put in Moore for the experience. A player can't improve if they don't get experience. I'd rather have someone in there with potential to be better than stick with someone I know is terrible simply cause Im too afraid the backups will be bad. You already have a bad one out there starting, so why are you afraid if the backups will be bad too? At least there's a chance things could be better with them.

It's called the coaches know more about the team than the fans do, amazing, isn't it?

[Fireball77]

I kinda understand their philosophy though especially watching Peyton Manning play tonight.

(disclaimer, I am not directing this post AT you, just using your post as a springboard for my comments)

You know what else I saw? Manning and McNabb both fumble in basically the same way that always gets complained about on here as being just about unique to Jake. Point being it's not good, some are better than others, but it isn't something that disappears altogether when you have another guy you consider better.

Between the two of them they have one SB ring too.

No one here would be happy I would wager with the Eagles' performances in the playoffs since they haven't won a SB either or the Colts' playoff history minus that one year when the D and run game and their kicker were 90% of the things that carried them to their title would they? Colts have had almost all one and dones in the playoffs with Manning.

Despite the media love for both their offenses they both have at times had better defenses than Carolina has ever had under Fox PA wise since 2003 and still failed in the playoffs.

In 2008 the Eagles were 4th in the NFL and the Colts were 7th. Carolina was 12th. I would bet money the Panthers wouldn't have won the SB last year with that defense especially since they got worse and worse as the year went on so the 12th is a bit misleading.

Let me continue with other years they had advantages over Carolina:

Defense PA-07 Colts 1st in the NFL, Eagles 9th. Carolina? 15th. Guess who made the playoffs?

2005- Colts 2nd in the NFL, Carolina was 5th, and the Eagles? Well they missed the playoffs. Why? Well they had a defense that was 27th in the NFL in PA. What happened in the playoffs that year? Colts with that defense were one and done because their offense blew it vs Pitt while the D held up their end. Carolina with a far worse rush offense than Indy and a little worse of a D won two playoff games.

2004-Eagles 2nd in the NFL. Went to the SB. Colts & Panthers were separated by .7 PPG, Panthers were slightly better. Panthers had 14 guys on IR that year. Colts? Made the playoffs in large part due to their offense, but guess what failed beyond miserably in the playoffs? The offense. Guess what gave up fewer PPG in that loss than they averaged giving up during the year? The defense.

2003- Eagles were 7th in PA, Carolina 10th. We know what happened in that year when the Eagles met the Cats in the AFCC. The Eagles' offense failed them & their defense yielded even FEWER points to Carolina than they gave up during the year and they had a better D than Carolina did to begin with. The Colts were a pedestrian 20th but guess what failed them more (variance from regular season PPG and PA)in their playoff loss? Yep, the offense.

So when I say that at no time has Fox ever fielded a defense that was as good as either one of those teams at their best, that is a fact, not rationalizing. But it is also never factored in to the "elite QB is the shiznit" discussion. Why not?

After all the furor on here when the Cats were one and done this year which was the first time they have been that under Fox, would you fans who want the elite guy really be happy with CONSTANT one and dones or almost theres as long as you had Manning or McNabb? Especially vis a vis his & McNabb's contributions to their playoff failures? I find that hard to believe, but it's possible I guess.

If an elite or great QB is THE difference in winning SBs, then what explains those teams? What explains the NYG winning the SB over the Pats? Eli is better than Brady?

[LiQuiD]

I think the 'Tommy John' surgery was not as successful as they are saying. Jake has always been consistently inconsistent, but last season seem to be even more so.

This. Sure he's able to use his elbow and throw the ball, but his accuracy and control seem to have gone down the toilet even more so than in his pre-surgery days.

[SMACKDAB]

It's called the coaches know more about the team than the fans do, amazing, isn't it?

I'm not a coach, but I know I can't go to my job, and screw up everything in the place, and expect to keep my job for very long, before someone else is there to take my place.

This I do know. :bigear:

[kungfoodude]

I'd be pretty happy with making the playoffs every year. Don't know about the one and done but I wouldn't complain about consistently getting there. Not to mention, if you have a very good team, even if you suffer some disappointments, seems like you break through eventually (see Manning and Colts). Hey, who WOULDN'T like to be the Patriots and always be in the mix for not just a playoff spot but a Super Bowl. I think that is probably a bit unrealistic. I just want to be able to CONSISTENTLY get into the playoffs and be in the mix. Gimmie quite a few NFC championship games and a SB or two and I'll be ecstatic.

[PantherBrew]

I'd be pretty happy with making the playoffs every year. Don't know about the one and done but I wouldn't complain about consistently getting there. Not to mention, if you have a very good team, even if you suffer some disappointments, seems like you break through eventually (see Manning and Colts). Hey, who WOULDN'T like to be the Patriots and always be in the mix for not just a playoff spot but a Super Bowl. I think that is probably a bit unrealistic. I just want to be able to CONSISTENTLY get into the playoffs and be in the mix. Gimmie quite a few NFC championship games and a SB or two and I'll be ecstatic.

Seriously? Damn, I think everyone here expects about 5 super championships in a row. I dont see how you can have such low expectations with a few NFC championship games and a SuperBowl or two.

way to set the bar low.

Every Panther fan here wants to go and win multiple SuperBowls.

Every Panther fan here wants a consistant winner.

I think John Fox and Jake Delhomme would like to CONSISTENTLY get into the playoffs and be in the mix.

Fact of the matter is.

1. If you want a franchise, elite QB, such as Manning, Brady, Palmer, Ryan, with the exception of Brady. You pretty much have to have a horrible season, and get lucky that you picked a winner. Even if you do draft a QB in the first round how likely are they to work out. See Young, Lienart, Smith, Losman, Carr, ... the list goes on and on. Look at two of the top teams that drafted a QB in the top 5. Matt Lienart cant get on the field past a 39 year old QB. Vince Young had his position taken by another senior citizen.

The "science" of drafting a QB is not a science, its a lottery. You think Jake Delhomme is like a box of chocolates... Try to draft an Elite QB in the first round and just see how much chances there are to screw up.

People think that John Fox is enamored with Jake and wont bench him. I cant speak for him personally, but if I had to bench my best friend in the best intrest of my team, and for me to keep my job. I would do it in a heartbeat.

I would hate to see the uproar here if we had gotten Jay Cutler and he preformed like he did in his first preseason game.

Dont get me wrong, I do not believe Jake is untouchable. I think that everyone should be held accountable for their play. As many others have said and i agree, " I support Jake, but this is his make or break year".

But, what "elite" QB is gonna come save the day?

Right now, I'll take my chances with Jake. Cause, with the talent we have, he is the best chance to win now. Now it may come crashing down in a ball of fire. But Jake has shown he can be a winner, and I am willing to see if he can do it again.

[kungfoodude]

Sarcasm aside, we can all agree that not everyone can be the Patriots or the Cowboys, with short stretches of excellence resulting in multiple rings. As nice as that would be, it's also probably not a realistic goal and I'm not about to get all huffy because we can't pull off 3 out of 4 SB's.

I'm also not a fan of going and getting an elite QB, especially in the John Fox system. Again, we are a run-first, run-second and run-third team. All we need is a trustworthy and consistent game manager. Neither of those describes Jake Delhomme, nor has it EVER described him. With Jake you have to put up with the head-scratching throws and the total meltdowns for the fourth quarter comebacks and the occasional great performance. I'm just personally sick of that. I don't want to have to "roll the dice" every Sunday to see which we get. Ultimately, that is not a recipe for consistency or overall success.