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[Mr. Scot]

I know this has been posted before, but compare the way the Colts and Panthers have drafted in the past few years:

 

Colts since taking Luck (including his draft).  15/22 offensive players taken, including 5 offensive linemen.

Panthers since taking Newton.  11/26.  

 

One team believes in building around and taking care of it's franchise QB.  The other team, well it's Hurney's fault.

 

Of you look only at the past two drafts, offense/defense has been pretty much an even split.

 

[CRA]

Of you look only at the past two drafts, offense/defense has been pretty much an even split.

Well If you look at it, Carolina has done nothing until Newton's 4th year.....and allowed downgrading steadily each year. The most drastic downgrading the year they actually added a piece

So the trend is steady....get worse around him every year when other teams so the opposite with a young QB they believe is "it"

[BuffaloBills62]

You are looking at things through odd glasses.

Look at the NE rush attack in 2001 vs Car 2014. NE was light years better. Our RBs having nicknames bc of something a half decade ago doesn't matter. That 2001 NE team could let Brady hand it off over and over. Cam can't do that bc we can't run. OL is HUGE. You are downplaying it's huge importance and focusing on old nicknames and a rookie WR somehow being something it isn't

NE was a running team that could run.

Car is a running team that can't unless there hurt QB sucks it up and puts them on his back

2001 vs 2014 isn't much of a debate IMO

2001-2014 is a push, then.

 

Go on the with rest, I'll even let you claim victory on that one season.  Go ahead to the next season.

[CRA]

2001-2014 is a push, then.

Go on the with rest, I'll even let you claim victory on that one season. Go ahead to the next season.

See it clearly isn't a push. 2 running teams. One built to run with meh WRs. One that can't run with meh WRs and good TE.

You do realize before we continue....you just acknowleged already the NE OL in 2001 was superior. NE OL gets much better in 2005, 2006....which really makes discussing those years a waste of breath. Carolina in this discussion is a constant. You want to skip those? Maybe go back and look at the foundation of that NE O

[BuffaloBills62]

See it clearly isn't a push. 2 running teams. One built to run with meh WRs. One that can't run with meh WRs and good TE.

You do realize before we continue....you just acknowleged already the NE OL in 2001 was superior. NE OL gets much better in 2005, 2006....which really makes discussing those years a waste of breath. Carolina in this discussion is a constant. You want to skip those? Maybe go back and look at the foundation of that NE O

Wrong.

 

In 2001, Brady was scrambling for his life.  Throwing the ball all over the place not to get killed.  The Patriots stuck to their plan and kept a core unit together and built upon them.  That's what good coaches do; but, until 04 the OL was not that good.  It turned the corner that year with Kazcur and Ashworth.  By the next year they added Matt Light who held down the LT and put Kazcur to RT and in 05 they had a good OL.

 

Who was behind the OL in 05?  Aged and beat up Corey Dillon - just ran for 1600 yards the season before barely broke 700 this year.  The team only ran for 1,500 yards total.  

 

Brady put up 4110 yards to the likes of Deion Branch - 996 yards, Danny Graham - 235 yards, Ben Watson - 441 yards, Troy Brown - 466 yards, David Givens - 738 yards, Tim Dwight - 332 yards, Andre Davis - 190 yards...

Branch never got more then the 998 yards that season, coming the closest with 818 yards between NE/Seattle.  He left in 2006 to Seattle and averaged 521 yards per season over the next 4 seasons until being traded back to NE where he put up 706 yards in 11 games that would have come to 1,191 yards had he played all 16 games in NE.

 

David Givens, David F'n Givens... after 2005 and his 738 yards with Super Bowl MVP he goes to Tennessee and gets 104 yards in 5 games and disappears never to play again.

 

Troy Brown played in 2006 and got 384 yards.  That's awesome!

 

Ben Watson outdid himself in 2006 with 643 yards, then played with NE averaging 334 yards over the next 3 years.

 

Maybe you are right.  Maybe you are on to something, Tom Brady had more talent around him - but that is only because he made that talent.  No one leaves New England and contributes or finds success.  The only way you find success is to play in NE with Belicheck and Brady.

 

But, in 2005 Brady had no OL and hardly anything lined up next to him and they still finished 10-6.

 

Even in Newtons 2012 outing he had Steve Smith, Olsen, LaFell, and Williams/Stewart.

 

Sure, everyone can say LaFell sucks because they were idiots and now jealous but the dude is going to get 1,000 yards this year.  He didn't just show up.  He has Brady, leaps and bounds better then Newton.

 

Steve Smith is also reviving his career away from this organization.  He is on pace to have his third best season ever as a pro despite being 35 years old and a cancer (right???).  This should be his best season since 2008.

 

Newton is not as good as Brady, that's not debatable.  At least at this point.  But, saying Brady has had great talent all around him is ridiculous because he has had awful teams and he has made the most of his team.

[CRA]

Wrong.

In 2001, Brady was scrambling for his life. Throwing the ball all over the place not to get killed. The Patriots stuck to their plan and kept a core unit together and built upon them. That's what good coaches do; but, until 04 the OL was not that good. It turned the corner that year with Kazcur and Ashworth. By the next year they added Matt Light who held down the LT and put Kazcur to RT and in 05 they had a good OL.

Who was behind the OL in 05? Aged and beat up Corey Dillon - just ran for 1600 yards the season before barely broke 700 this year. The team only ran for 1,500 yards total.

Brady put up 4110 yards to the likes of Deion Branch - 996 yards, Danny Graham - 235 yards, Ben Watson - 441 yards, Troy Brown - 466 yards, David Givens - 738 yards, Tim Dwight - 332 yards, Andre Davis - 190 yards...

Branch never got more then the 998 yards that season, coming the closest with 818 yards between NE/Seattle. He left in 2006 to Seattle and averaged 521 yards per season over the next 4 seasons until being traded back to NE where he put up 706 yards in 11 games that would have come to 1,191 yards had he played all 16 games in NE.

David Givens, David F'n Givens... after 2005 and his 738 yards with Super Bowl MVP he goes to Tennessee and gets 104 yards in 5 games and disappears never to play again.

Troy Brown played in 2006 and got 384 yards. That's awesome!

Ben Watson outdid himself in 2006 with 643 yards, then played with NE averaging 334 yards over the next 3 years.

Maybe you are right. Maybe you are on

to something, Tom Brady had more talent around him - but that is only because he made that talent. No one leaves New England and contributes or finds success. The only way you find success is to play in NE with Belicheck and Brady.

But, in 2005 Brady had no OL and hardly anything lined up next to him and they still finished 10-6.

Even in Newtons 2012 outing he had Steve Smith, Olsen, LaFell, and Williams/Stewart.

Sure, everyone can say LaFell sucks because they were idiots and now jealous but the dude is going to get 1,000 yards this year. He didn't just show up. He has Brady, leaps and bounds better then Newton.

Steve Smith is also reviving his career away from this organization. He is on pace to have his third best season ever as a pro despite being 35 years old and a cancer (right???). This should be his best season since 2008.

Newton is not as good as Brady, that's not debatable. At least at this point. But, saying Brady has had great talent all around him is ridiculous because he has had awful teams and he has made the most of his team.

Dude, this isn't about Cam vs Brady. This is purely a conversation on the offensive talent minus QB. No one compared Cam to Brady.

YOU are the one who brought it up. You said Brady had worse supporting cast.

Never said Brady had great talent all those years. Said he didn't have 2014 Car support. Two completely different things. Don't blur it. Again, you made the statement....I just challenged it.

2001 - an unspectacular RB ran for 1100 yards and double digit TDs the NE OL wasn't an epic joke like the 2014 Car one. Brady didn't make that rush attack. It aided a first time starter. The OL play itself is the conversation. The gap was that big. OL play is HUGE. Comparing someone to this offensive cast is not wise.

2005-2006 are the next years you named. It wasn't a cast of undrafted dudes and converted defensive guys in NE. Logan Mankins was a first rounder who became an all pro. Koppen was a legit C and made the Pro Bowl too in his career. Matt Light was back too in 2006, another all pro career guy.

So in 2006 you have LT who was multi year Pro Bowl/All Pro career guy, LG another guy who made Pro Bowls and All Pro teams in his career, a strong C who would make the Pro Bowl, drafted 3rd round OTs playing RT (not converted undrafted DTs).

The OL difference is so comical....how can you even attempt to call those NE supporting cast weaker.

I'm not sure you could name a worse OL than 2014 Car one in the last decade. Yet here you are claiming almost every other year Brady had a worst supporting cast than the 2014 Panthers.

We have the worst OL I can put my finger on in a decade, we can't run, we can't pass protect.....we have meh WRs. Sorry but you have yet to name a year NE gave their QB less than that to work with

Also, since you are wanting to turn this into a conversation about a billion things instead of just the one topic I challenged....before Car built the worst OL I can finger point in a decade....rookie Cam revived 89's career. Your math is bad, 89 is on pace to have his best year since Cam revived him in 2011. Until this joke OL this year....everyone else outside 89 had career seasons to that date with Cam. Everyone from Olsen, rejects like Ginn and LaFell in a run offense. That is with raw young Cam....not a 10 yr version of himself where he would be as good as he could be

[BuffaloBills62]

Dude, this isn't about Cam vs Brady. This is purely a conversation on the offensive talent minus QB. No one compared Cam to Brady.

YOU are the one who brought it up. You said Brady had worse supporting cast.

Never said Brady had great talent all those years. Said he didn't have 2014 Car support. Two completely different things. Don't blur it. Again, you made the statement....I just challenged it.

2001 - an unspectacular RB ran for 1100 yards and double digit TDs the NE OL wasn't an epic joke like the 2014 Car one. Brady didn't make that rush attack. It aided a first time starter. The OL play itself is the conversation. The gap was that big. OL play is HUGE. Comparing someone to this offensive cast is not wise.

2005-2006 are the next years you named. It wasn't a cast of undrafted dudes and converted defensive guys in NE. Logan Mankins was a first rounder who became an all pro. Koppen was a legit C and made the Pro Bowl too in his career. Matt Light was back too in 2006, another all pro career guy.  Perhaps Bell could make the Pro Bowl, or someone else on this OL, too.

So in 2006 you have LT who was multi year Pro Bowl/All Pro career guy, LG another guy who made Pro Bowls and All Pro teams in his career, a strong C who would make the Pro Bowl, drafted 3rd round OTs playing RT (not converted undrafted DTs).  2006 doesn't matter.

The OL difference is so comical....how can you even attempt to call those NE supporting cast weaker.

I'm not sure you could name a worse OL than 2014 Car one in the last decade. Yet here you are claiming almost every other year Brady had a worst supporting cast than the 2014 Panthers.

 

I stopped reading because of your homer-ness.

ok, what you just said was so garbbled that I struggled to bring from it anything relevant other then the fact that you don't know NE's starting line for 2005.  Yes, that matters.  Not 2006.  Because, at that time they had two UDFA's on the line and an awful Nick Kaczur at LT.

 

 

But, yeah, about your UDFA comment, this is the 2005 lineup:

 

LT - Kaczur - 3rd round

LG - Mankins - 1st round

OC Koppen -5th round 

RG - Neal - UDFA

LT - Ashworth - UDFA

 

There are some other god awful lines in this league and there have been equally awful lines in the last 10 years.  Miami for a number of years, Buffalo, St Louis, Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota, 

 

So, look at the information and we'll just disagree.  This comment is tiresome and it is not going anywhere.  The Panthers have a shitty OL but that does not excuse the fact that nothing is getting done on offense.  It is in Cam Newtons hands and he is failing.

[CRA]

ok, what you just said was so garbbled that I struggled to bring from it anything relevant other then the fact that you don't know NE's starting line for 2005. Yes, that matters. Not 2006. Because, at that time they had two UDFA's on the line and an awful Nick Kaczur at LT.

But, yeah, about your UDFA comment, this is the 2005 lineup:

LT - Kaczur - 3rd round

LG - Mankins - 1st round

OC Koppen -5th round

RG - Neal - UDFA

LT - Ashworth - UDFA

There are some other god awful lines in this league and there have been equally awful lines in the last 10 years. Miami for a number of years, Buffalo, St Louis, Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota,

So, look at the information and we'll just disagree. This comment is tiresome and it is not going anywhere. The Panthers have a shitty OL but that does not excuse the fact that nothing is getting done on offense. It is in Cam Newtons hands and he is failing.

No, anyone who watches football knows Byron Bell won't make a Pro Bowl.

2006 doesn't matter? Why not? It was one of the years you listed? I guess since you are trying to blur everything you can just dismiss that one.

Claiming the 2014 Car OL is the worst OL in the last decade is homerism? Okay.

2005 OL > 2014 Car OL. Again, difference at G and T is too extreme. Notice again that left side and those draft picks....and that 3rd round LT was filling in for Matt Light. They won 2 of the 3 he played in. NE invested in an even better supporting cast. He only played 3 games in 05 but came back in 2006. Lot of good talent NE had on the OL. The 2005 backup LT much much better than the 2014 starter. That happens when you put importance on the cast around your QB

[King]

ok, what you just said was so garbbled that I struggled to bring from it anything relevant other then the fact that you don't know NE's starting line for 2005. Yes, that matters. Not 2006. Because, at that time they had two UDFA's on the line and an awful Nick Kaczur at LT.

But, yeah, about your UDFA comment, this is the 2005 lineup:

LT - Kaczur - 3rd round

LG - Mankins - 1st round

OC Koppen -5th round

RG - Neal - UDFA

LT - Ashworth - UDFA

There are some other god awful lines in this league and there have been equally awful lines in the last 10 years. Miami for a number of years, Buffalo, St Louis, Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota,

So, look at the information and we'll just disagree. This comment is tiresome and it is not going anywhere. The Panthers have a shitty OL but that does not excuse the fact that nothing is getting done on offense. It is in Cam Newtons hands and he is failing.

Nothing is ever Newton's fault on this board. Like that other guy said, people want to break the bank on a rapidly deteriorating QB with no pocket passing ability.

[CRA]

Nothing is ever Newton's fault on this board. Like that other guy said, people want to break the bank on a rapidly deteriorating QB with no pocket passing ability.

Newton has holes to his game and faults....most 4th yr players do.

OL just at such a dysfunctional level that it prohibits basic plays from occurring. Silly to evaluate any QB in that scenario. No QB would be given a chance to operate remotely normally