They Gambled. They Lost. It's That Simple.

[panthers55]

Yes its that simple.

 

But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be repercussions and soon.

 

The Panthers are a billion plus dollar business.  Their management is expected to operate at the highest levels and while not everyone can be the "top dog" this management team isn't even competing near the same level as the bad to mediocre teams.  Its like the other 31 teams are playing a different game.

 

Im hyper aware of the fact that RR and team have forgotten more about this game than Ive ever known but I could have easily assembled a coaching staff that would have surpassed what we saw last night from posters on this forum.  And when there are nine zeros in the net worth of your organization, that's completely unacceptable.

Dont fool yourself.  You could find coaches for a middle school team maybe, but you don't have a clue how to put together an NFL since you have no clue about football at the pro level.  I don't either for that matter but I don't act like I can.  That is the issue with many posters here.  They act like they are experts or could do a better job and they have never coached or ran a team at any level..

[Woodie]

Rivera doesn't know who's talented and who isn't.

 

As a DC, you can get away with that.

 

As a head coach who sets the depth chart, hires coaches and has input on roster decisions, not so much.

 

But how do you KNOW that?  To me it sounds an awful lot like a personal opinion, which is fine, but don't act like it is fact when it's not.

 

And again, you have no idea how much input Rivera has on personnel decisions.  Sure, he gives his opinion and has discussions with Gettleman, but there is nothing out there to support the idea that his opinion carries so much weight that Gettleman would go with RR's guy against his better judgment.  And yes, he hires coaches, and for the most part, he did a good job at that.  Most (here and elsewhere) praised most of his hiring decisions prior to the Shula choice.  And even with that one, he had a logical reason...it may have turned out to be wrong, but it did make some sense.

 

Just touching on the depth chart, who do we have that should be starting over someone above him?  Seems to me that he has them placed pretty much where they should be.  The problem isn't the depth chart, it's what he has to work with that is the problem.

 

[Mr. Scot]

But how do you KNOW that?  To me it sounds an awful lot like a personal opinion, which is fine, but don't act like it is fact when it's not.

 

And again, you have no idea how much input Rivera has on personnel decisions.  Sure, he gives his opinion and has discussions with Gettleman, but there is nothing out there to support the idea that his opinion carries so much weight that Gettleman would go with RR's guy against his better judgment.  And yes, he hires coaches, and for the most part, he did a good job at that.  Most (here and elsewhere) praised most of his hiring decisions prior to the Shula choice.  And even with that one, he had a logical reason...it may have turned out to be wrong, but it did make some sense.

 

Just touching on the depth chart, who do we have that should be starting over someone above him?  Seems to me that he has them placed pretty much where they should be.  The problem isn't the depth chart, it's what he has to work with that is the problem.

 

 

I'm going off a combination of what they say and what I see.

 

Godfrey got a huge contract when the power structure consisted of Hurney and Rivera.  With Gettleman in charge, he was asked (arguably forced) to take a massive pay cut and Rivera switched positions to try and help him contribute.  It failed, and he was unceremoniously cut.

 

Gettleman does deserve blame for making Rivera part of the process and for signing off on the choices, but Rivera's love of 'effort' guys started well before Gettleman was hired.

[Inimicus]

Dont fool yourself.  You could find coaches for a middle school team maybe, but you don't have a clue how to put together an NFL since you have no clue about football at the pro level.  I don't either for that matter but I don't act like I can.  That is the issue with many posters here.  They act like they are experts or could do a better job and they have never coached or ran a team at any level..

 

Which was precisely the point that I was attempting to illustrate.

 

I confessed outright that my knowledge was inferior and yet based on what we've all seen on the field over the last month I'm reasonably confident that some of the folks who frequent this forum could do a better job.

 

Ive long held the belief that if I (or any of the rest of us) had the knowledge and skills to second guess the coaches and front office we wouldn't be working our 40/60/80/110k per year jobs but would be coaching football at a meaningful level.  But you have to admit that what we've been treated to over the last 5 weeks really puts that belief on substantial more shaky ground.

[jfo89]

Everyone wants to find effigies to burn and jobs to be lost and players to be cut and rabble, rabble, rabble.

 

It boils down to one very simple reality: the front office (assign blame between coaches and GM as you wish) lacked the fiscal resources to address all areas of need and decided that the offensive line could hold up if necessary. It was a fatal gamble and they lost. There aren't any real schematic answers that fit with the offensive roster we currently have: we lack the offensive line to establish the running game and play action schemes our core philosophy is built around and other, less line-intensive schemes such as a dink-and-dunk WCO are entirely unsuited to the receiving corps we have.

 

So keep in mind between all of your hell-raising that before amputating every limb off the patient one should wonder if their broken ankle might be the cause that keeps them from walking.

 

Yea they gambled and the stakes were Cams health and possibly career. 

[CRA]

I'm going off a combination of what they say and what I see.

Godfrey got a huge contract when the power structure consisted of Hurney and Rivera. With Gettleman in charge, he was asked (arguably forced) to take a massive pay cut and Rivera switched positions to try and help him contribute. It failed, and he was unceremoniously cut.

Gettleman does deserve blame for making Rivera part of the process and for signing off on the choices, but Rivera's love of 'effort' guys started well before Gettleman was hired.

Hurney gave all Hurney guys big deals. Not sure why Ron is getting credited on that.

Gettlemen sets the roster. Rivera the depth chart.

Rivera buried Godfrey behind a rookie. That is what Ron thought.

[panthers55]

Which was precisely the point that I was attempting to illustrate.

 

I confessed outright that my knowledge was inferior and yet based on what we've all seen on the field over the last month I'm reasonably confident that some of the folks who frequent this forum could do a better job.

 

Ive long held the belief that if I (or any of the rest of us) had the knowledge and skills to second guess the coaches and front office we wouldn't be working our 40/60/80/110k per year jobs but would be coaching football at a meaningful level.  But you have to admit that what we've been treated to over the last 5 weeks really puts that belief on substantial more shaky ground.

Who exactly could run a team and be a GM from the posters here.  I suspect there is no one who has even been a pro coach at any level let alone know enough to run an NFl franchise.  That is beyond ridiculous.

 

I know you are frustrated as an I.  But I know enough to know that I am a fan nothing else.

[Mr. Scot]

Hurney gave all Hurney guys big deals. Not sure why Ron is getting credited on that.

Gettlemen sets the roster. Rivera the depth chart.

Rivera buried Godfrey behind a rookie. That is what Ron thought.

 

Your theory was that Hurney listened to Rivera but Gettleman doesn't.

 

Are you departing from that now?

[Woodie]

I'm going off a combination of what they say and what I see.

 

Godfrey got a huge contract when the power structure consisted of Hurney and Rivera.  With Gettleman in charge, he was asked (arguably forced) to take a massive pay cut and Rivera switched positions to try and help him contribute.  It failed, and he was unceremoniously cut.

 

Gettleman does deserve blame for making Rivera part of the process and for signing off on the choices, but Rivera's love of 'effort' guys started well before Gettleman was hired.

 

So basically, it's just your opinion.  I have no problem with that, although I think you overvalue Rivera's power on the team.  And I put more blame on Hurney for doubling down on two high paid positions than anything Gettleman has done. 

 

I don't think Gettleman is blameless, by any means, but I do think he was dealt a crappy hand.  I also think he knew his hand was crappy coming in, but felt this was probably his only chance at a GM gig, so bought into a 2-3 year re-build.  Last year was a bit of a fluke and we got unusually lucky with lower-tiered FA's.  That made people think we were better and deeper tan we were. 

 

Unfortunately we didn't get so lucky this year, then the Hardy situation blew up too late for us to do anything about it except try to endure.  I will say that I fully expect some major changes this off-season.  Seriously doubt that Rivera will be gone, but some of the coaches will be, as well as some big name players.  I also think OL will be the #1 priority this year.     

[CRA]

Your theory was that Hurney listened to Rivera but Gettleman doesn't.

Are you departing from that now?

Hurney not being a football guy (reporter) and Gettlemen being a long term scout/football guy. So yes, I think they go about things different.

As far as Godfrey goes, like I said...he was a Hurney guy. In addition to Hurney largely doing what a coach wanted in a draft....he was overly loyal. Godfrey was a Hurney guy. Hurney took care of him. Simple as that.

Hurney was a coaches GM but still loyal to his players. Rivera coming in there was IMO an odd mix.

I dont think Dave puts the same value in his coaches opinion as Hurney.

To put it in simple terms, all this could of aided if Hurney was fired when he should of been. Fox/Hurney should of been fired together. Our front office is putting bad combos together....Rivera should never of been paired with Hurney and Dave likely not Ron. Clean breaks were needed. Rivera should of been hired by a new GM. Allows for a an actual new team to form.

[Mr. Scot]

So basically, it's just your opinion.  I have no problem with that, although I think you overvalue Rivera's power on the team.  And I put more blame on Hurney for doubling down on two high paid positions than anything Gettleman has done. 

 

I don't think Gettleman is blameless, by any means, but I do think he was dealt a crappy hand.  I also think he knew his hand was crappy coming in, but felt this was probably his only chance at a GM gig, so bought into a 2-3 year re-build.  Last year was a bit of a fluke and we got unusually lucky with lower-tiered FA's.  That made people think we were better and deeper tan we were. 

 

Unfortunately we didn't get so lucky this year, then the Hardy situation blew up too late for us to do anything about it except try to endure.  I will say that I fully expect some major changes this off-season.  Seriously doubt that Rivera will be gone, but some of the coaches will be, as well as some big name players.  I also think OL will be the #1 priority this year.     

 

Hurney still shares plenty of blame.  No argument there.  Also agree last year was a fluke.

 

For the last part of the 2012 season, Rivera essentially had final say on all personnel matters (they sure as heck weren't giving that to logistics guy Brandon Beane).  I think that and Gettleman's stated preference for a collaborative approach are why we have some of the decisions that we do.

 

I do believe Rivera winds up gone, though.  He's lost the team.  A head coach can't really recover from that.

 

[Mr. Scot]

Hurney not being a football guy (reporter) and Gettlemen being a long term scout/football guy. So yes, I think they go about things different.

As far as Godfrey goes, like I said...he was a Hurney guy. In addition to Hurney largely doing what a coach wanted in a draft....he was overly loyal. Godfrey was a Hurney guy. Hurney took care of him. Simple as that.

Hurney was a coaches GM but still loyal to his players. Rivera coming in there was IMO an odd mix.

I dont think Dave puts the same value in his coaches opinion as Hurney.

To put it in simple terms, all this could of aided if Hurney was fired when he should of been. Fox/Hurney should of been fired together. Our front office is putting bad combos together....Rivers should never of been paired with Hurney and Dave likely not Ron. Clean breaks were needed.

 

I will agree with you on the last part.

 

Hurney and Fox were always considered "a package deal".  They should have been let go as a package too.

 

I normally wouldn't favor parting with both a head coach and a GM in the same season, but in that case it likely would have been best.

 

[Mojo]

I can't really blame Gettleman that much.  The Oline does need help and I do think it was a mistake to not address that but I still think he's done a pretty good job.  Last year he signed Mitchell Ginn and Mikell who did really well for us.   We couldn't keep them because of money reasons. He drafted Star, KK, Trai Turner, KB, Bene (who I think will be good).  Signed Andrew Norwell (who I also think will be good).  Jordan Gross retired along with Travelle Wharton.  The timing was really bad.   These are some heavy growing pains but I'm ready for the coaching staff to be cleaned out completely.  The synergy just isn't there.  We got lucky to have finish 12-4 last year.  This year the team has devolved and we miss Greg Hardy way more than I personally anticipated.

 

Some personnel decisions have been questionable to say the least.  Amini is clearly not our best option at LG.  Harper is clearly not our best option at SS (he got sodomized constantly yesterday).  It took Rivera half the season to bench Cason after he got abused time and time again.  We keep handing Deangelo carries even though Stew has clearly been the better back (even Fozzy has been better).  These are all coaching decisions and I can't put that on Gettleman.  Our OC is braindead, our HC is braindead.  Everyone is frustrated from Cam to Greg to you and me.  Things have to change.  If they don't soon then I'll put more blame on Gettleman.

 

 

[fieryprophet]

Rivera doesn't know who's talented and who isn't.

 

As a DC, you can get away with that.

 

As a head coach who sets the depth chart, hires coaches and has input on roster decisions, not so much.

 

But we can only really judge him on one of those three things. The depth chart has not been an issue because our bad starters have even worse backups. We really do not know how much input he actually has on roster decisions. I really believe that his influence is being overblown. Gettleman strikes me as someone who will listen to everyone's opinion but follows his own instincts in the end. And when it comes to the coaches Rivera definitely is fair game, but considering the love/hate relationship this fanbase has from week to week with everyone its hard to be absolute there either.