My biggest worry about Gettleman

[Mr. Scot]

None of us know what happens behind closed doors and Gettle could be ruthless in this regard as well. Tough to fire any staff after 12-4 season.

If a scout or lower level position guy was fired, would we even hear about it?

 

Maybe if Aaron Wilson reported it.

 

Our beat writers don't exactly get a lot of 'scoops'.

 

[top dawg]

Rivera has basically had various degrees of mediocre talent since he has been here, and he has had a modicum of success.  It's also arguable that he has done a pretty fair job making the transition from a DC to an HC.  The only real finger pointing I do at Rivera is his decision to keep Shula at the expense of Hue Jackson.

As for the way that this season has gone, at the end of the day we are 3-3-1 with the division lead (ugly as it has been).  With the dearth of talent, which is squarely on G-man's shoulders, if he's going to pull the plug on Rivera because of this crap, then he needs to pull the plug on himself.  

 

If you are suggesting that maybe Rivera had a lucky season last year, then I could easily say the same thing about G-man.  This offseason, including the draft, up until now has not looked pretty.  It just bespeaks of gambling with the risk of possibly tanking because of deficiencies on both sides of the ball that were outright neglected.

[Mr. Scot]

Rivera has basically had various degrees of mediocre talent since he has been here, and he has had a modicum of success.  It's also arguable that he has done a pretty fair job making the transition from a DC to an HC.  The only real finger pointing I do at Rivera is his decision to keep Shula at the expense of Hue Jackson.

As for the way that this season has gone, at the end of the day we are 3-3-1 with the division lead (ugly as it has been).  With the dearth of talent, which is squarely on G-man's shoulders, if he's going to pull the plug on Rivera because of this crap, then he needs to pull the plug on himself.  

 

If you are suggesting that maybe Rivera had a lucky season last year, then I could easily say the same thing about G-man.  This offseason, including the draft, up until now has not looked pretty.  It just bespeaks of gambling with the risk of possibly tanking because of deficiencies on both sides of the ball that were outright neglected.

 

It could be argued the team in general had a 'lucky season' last year.  Nobody expected us to be that good.

 

Honestly, given all the injuries, you could argue we're having an 'unlucky season' this year

 

[Montsta]

Here's the question though...

Which Rivera is the real Rivera: The guy who went 12-4 last year or the guy who's coached to mediocre records every other season?

A valid question and legitimate concern. I wouldn't say RR has coached mediocre seasons prior to this one though.

His first year we were the worst team in the league the year before, and were severely lacking in talent. He improved drastically on that team to 6-10, with a ton of close games that we coulda been 10-6 or 9-7.

He improved again the second year with unrealistic expectations due to Cam's Superman rookie campaign, with a laughable defense. Again, a couple of balls bounce our way we coulda had a winning record.

Defense finally showed up last year and we win the NFCS title.

This year has certainly been a regression, but I actually feel like Rivera's body of work as a whole has been decent and if we go the fire coach look for new one route we could regress even further.

I guess I just look at the Raiders and see a team that has a revolving door at the HC position and they are a laughingstock.

[Mr. Scot]

A valid question and legitimate concern. I wouldn't say RR has coached mediocre seasons prior to this one though.

His first year we were the worst team in the league the year before, and were severely lacking in talent. He improved drastically on that team to 6-10, with a ton of close games that we coulda been 10-6 or 9-7.

He improved again the second year with unrealistic expectations due to Cam's Superman rookie campaign, with a laughable defense. Again, a couple of balls bounce our way we coulda had a winning record.

Defense finally showed up last year and we win the NFCS title.

This year has certainly been a regression, but I actually feel like Rivera's body of work as a whole has been decent and if we go the fire coach look for new one route we could regress even further.

I guess I just look at the Raiders and see a team that has a revolving door at the HC position and they are a laughingstock.

 

Trust me, revolving anything is the last thing I want.

 

[Paa Langfart]

Nope, Gettleman just signed Rivera and the rest of his staff to an extension, not only would the Panthers have to pay out the rest of their contracts, but also pay another coach and his staff. Which will be very costly.

 

 

Having another losing season or two or three would be very costly as well.  JR had to notice the uptick on merchandise sales etc on last years bottom line.

[thefuzz]

This feels strange to write this, but I'm willing to give Rivera through next season to show me something.

 

 

Let DG clear up the cap this offseason (it won't be totally cleaned up) and put together a decent roster shaped like RR wants it, and let him have at it.

 

If he can't succeed with his roster, and some added pieces, cut him loose, and bring in an offensive minded coach to take this O and particularly Cam to the next level.

[MHS831]

Good question, Mr. Scot

 

I see it this way--Hurney's spending spree in 2011 had lasting impact, since the contracts were largely guaranteed and about 4 years long.  That has kept us from bringing in quality free agents and has actually caused us to lose existing players because we could not afford to retain them.  Take Gross, for instance.  We cut his salary out of necessity.  If we could have allowed him to play at market value, he may have stayed for another year.  Wharton did not see the financial sense to remain.  So the ripple effect from Hurney's idiotic spending spree three years ago continues to keep the team in a strangle hold.  Money to Beason, Williams, Stewart, Johnson, etc.  is still causing problems.

 

A director is only as good as his actors. If the movie sucks, it can be for many reasons, but if the acting sucks, there is no need to look past that.  If you can't compete in free agency because you are paying players no longer on the roster or those who spend more time on the sideline than between them, it is difficult to win.  What Hurney did with contracts (starting with jake Delhomme) reeked of desperation and an inferiority complex--it was as if he thought he had to overpay to make Charlotte attractive.  Those contracts remained when he was fired--we are still dealing with them, both directly and indirectly.  For example, nobody is talking about Gross this year because he retired and lost 100 lbs.  HOWEVER, go back to when Gettlemen cut his contract (out of necessity).  Had that NOT been done and he was still being paid at fair market, might he have waited one more year or two before quitting? I think he might have.  Blame Gettlemen?  Stupid, especially when Stewart is making $200k per week riding a stationary bike. 

 

Gettlemen's nightmare is cleaning Hurney's crap off the floor, which explains why Cam is still not signed and why Hardy was not given the keys to the kingdom like CJ was.  He knows (first hand) how crippling these megadeals can be.  We all think Cam is worth the $24million, but he is a tough read.  I think he will be great with a line and some stud WRs--however, is his inconsistent play a red flag?  How good is he when the defense is not stellar?  Can he carry a team?  These are questions he must ask that will determine the fate of this team for the next 5 years or so.  A bad decision, we become the Rams or the Bills.

 

How many positions have been altered by the ridiculous contracts Hurney signed in 2011?  I would say the OL, WR, DL, and secondary have been profoundly impacted. Our secondary is full of late-rounders, old guys, nomadic free agents, etc.  That is understandable when we are paying players to ride bikes and make $740lk per week while being suspended.  But the problem at those positions is also HURNEY.  Answering these questions explains how:

 

Aside from Kalil in 2008, name the best OL Hurney signed or drafted who would reasonably be expected to contribute to the OL today?   Silatolu in the second round is the best answer.  Before that, Otah.  Not a great record if you ask me.

 

WR is worse.  Name a WR Marty Hurney brought in via free agency or draft that is contributing in a positive manner on this or another NFL team?

 

Look at MH's record at defensive back.  Who did he ever bring in after Chris Gamble and maybe Richard Marshall?  (Godfrey, Sherrod Martin, Nakamura, and a bunch of day 3 draft picks).

 

Nowhere did he show his incompetence more than at DT.  Fua, McClain? Who else?  

 

 

 

So, not only did Gettlemen have to deal with -$16m in cap room and some idiotic contracts, he inherited a team that was not building depth at key positions.  We are now feeling the effect of not having players that were being developed.  People are criticizing Gettlemen for filling in the gaps with paste and Elmer's, but where is the foundation?

 

We don't have the cast at key positions.  One-year contracts are the only way to fill them with warm bodies until the cap crap MH created is behind us.  However, when you are building this way-weathering the storm--you need consistency somewhere.  Rivera and his staff have done pretty well considering just how bad Marty Hurney was if you step back and look at the last 2 seasons.  Fire them and you create total chaos in the organization. 

 

 

[MHS831]

Good question, Mr. Scot

 

I see it this way--Hurney's spending spree in 2011 had lasting impact, since the contracts were largely guaranteed and about 4 years long.  That has kept us from bringing in quality free agents and has actually caused us to lose existing players because we could not afford to retain them. 

 

A director is only as good as his actors. If the movie sucks, it can be for many reasons, but if the acting sucks, there is no need to look past that.  If you can't compete in free agency because you are paying players no longer on the roster or those who spend more time on the sideline than between them, it is difficult to win.  What Hurney did with contracts (starting with jake Delhomme) reeked of desperation and an inferiority complex--it was as if he thought he had to overpay to make Charlotte attractive.  Those contracts remained when he was fired--we are still dealing with them, both directly and indirectly.  For example, nobody is talking about Gross this year because he retired and lost 100 lbs.  HOWEVER, go back to when Gettlemen cut his contract (out of necessity).  Had that NOT been done and he was still being paid at fair market, might he have waited one more year or two before quitting? I think he might have.  Blame Gettlemen?  Stupid, especially when Stewart is making $200k per week riding a stationary bike. 

 

Gettlemen's nightmare is cleaning Hurney's crap off the floor, which explains why Cam is still not signed and why Hardy was not given the keys to the kingdom like CJ was.  He knows (first hand) how crippling these megadeals can be.  We all think Cam is worth the $24million, but he is a tough read.  I think he will be great with a line and some stud WRs--however, is his inconsistent play a red flag?  How good is he when the defense is not stellar?  Can he carry a team?  These are questions he must ask that will determine the fate of this team for the next 5 years or so.  A bad decision, we become the Rams or the Bills.

 

How many positions have been altered by the ridiculous contracts Hurney signed in 2011?  I would say the OL, WR, DL, and secondary have been profoundly impacted. Our secondary is full of late-rounders, old guys, nomadic free agents, etc.  That is understandable when we are paying players to ride bikes and make $740lk per week while being suspended.  But the problem at those positions is also HURNEY.  Answering these questions explains how:

 

Aside from Kalil in 2008, name the best OL Hurney signed or drafted who would reasonably be expected to contribute to the OL today?   Silatolu in the second round is the best answer.  Before that, Otah.  Not a great record if you ask me.

 

WR is worse.  Name a WR Marty Hurney brought in via free agency or draft that is contributing in a positive manner on this or another NFL team?

 

Look at MH's record at defensive back.  Who did he ever bring in after Chris Gamble and maybe Richard Marshall?  (Godfrey, Sherrod Martin, Nakamura, and a bunch of day 3 draft picks).

 

Nowhere did he show his incompetence more than at DT.  Fua, McClain? Who else?  

 

 

 

So, not only did Gettlemen have to deal with -$16m in cap room and some idiotic contracts, he inherited a team that was not building depth at key positions.  We are now feeling the effect of not having players that were being developed.  People are criticizing Gettlemen for filling in the gaps with paste and Elmer's, but where is the foundation?

 

We don't have the cast at key positions.  One-year contracts are the only way to fill them with warm bodies until the cap crap MH created is behind us.  However, when you are building this way-weathering the storm--you need consistency somewhere.  Rivera and his staff have done pretty well considering just how bad Marty Hurney was if you step back and look at the last 2 seasons.  Fire them and you create total chaos in the organization. 

 

 

[prowler2k8]

Rivera has basically had various degrees of mediocre talent since he has been here, and he has had a modicum of success.  It's also arguable that he has done a pretty fair job making the transition from a DC to an HC.  The only real finger pointing I do at Rivera is his decision to keep Shula at the expense of Hue Jackson.

As for the way that this season has gone, at the end of the day we are 3-3-1 with the division lead (ugly as it has been).  With the dearth of talent, which is squarely on G-man's shoulders, if he's going to pull the plug on Rivera because of this crap, then he needs to pull the plug on himself.  

 

If you are suggesting that maybe Rivera had a lucky season last year, then I could easily say the same thing about G-man.  This offseason, including the draft, up until now has not looked pretty.  It just bespeaks of gambling with the risk of possibly tanking because of deficiencies on both sides of the ball that were outright neglected.

 

A mistake I hope he will rectify by getting rid of Shula and promoting Ramsdell at the end of the season, if not sooner. I have to believe that was thinking behind bringing Ramsdell on board in the 1st place. While we're at it, a bonafide QB coach that can help Cam overcome the footwork issues and constant overthrows would be nice.

[hepcat]

Mr Scot with all due respect this thread is premature.  The recent struggles are concerning but it's not like the team isn't competitive.  There are some genuine concerns about how Rivera is handling the team and in particular the defense, but right now but it's too soon.  After a season as positive as 2013, I wouldn't expect them to make any wholesale staff changes.  If it's not broke, don't fix it.  

 

The two things that hurt the Panthers the most were Jordan Gross retiring and Greg Hardy's legal troubles.  Hardy straight up took over 3 games last year (Giants, Saints, @ Falcons).  The Panthers don't win those games without Hardy.  And the team clearly wasn't expecting Jordan Gross to retire.  His loss has been felt the most throughout the team.  The team just isn't performing up to their talent level right now and are sorely lacking talent at key positions.  Some of that falls on Gettleman, but the salary cap issues are well known.  The problems fall on EVERYONE.  There is no one person to blame.

[Paa Langfart]

Good question, Mr. Scot

 

I see it this way--Hurney's spending spree in 2011 had lasting impact, since the contracts were largely guaranteed and about 4 years long.  That has kept us from bringing in quality free agents and has actually caused us to lose existing players because we could not afford to retain them. 

 

A director is only as good as his actors. If the movie sucks, it can be for many reasons, but if the acting sucks, there is no need to look past that.  If you can't compete in free agency because you are paying players no longer on the roster or those who spend more time on the sideline than between them, it is difficult to win.  What Hurney did with contracts (starting with jake Delhomme) reeked of desperation and an inferiority complex--it was as if he thought he had to overpay to make Charlotte attractive.  Those contracts remained when he was fired--we are still dealing with them, both directly and indirectly.  For example, nobody is talking about Gross this year because he retired and lost 100 lbs.  HOWEVER, go back to when Gettlemen cut his contract (out of necessity).  Had that NOT been done and he was still being paid at fair market, might he have waited one more year or two before quitting? I think he might have.  Blame Gettlemen?  Stupid, especially when Stewart is making $200k per week riding a stationary bike. 

 

Gettlemen's nightmare is cleaning Hurney's crap off the floor, which explains why Cam is still not signed and why Hardy was not given the keys to the kingdom like CJ was.  He knows (first hand) how crippling these megadeals can be.  We all think Cam is worth the $24million, but he is a tough read.  I think he will be great with a line and some stud WRs--however, is his inconsistent play a red flag?  How good is he when the defense is not stellar?  Can he carry a team?  These are questions he must ask that will determine the fate of this team for the next 5 years or so.  A bad decision, we become the Rams or the Bills.

 

How many positions have been altered by the ridiculous contracts Hurney signed in 2011?  I would say the OL, WR, DL, and secondary have been profoundly impacted. Our secondary is full of late-rounders, old guys, nomadic free agents, etc.  That is understandable when we are paying players to ride bikes and make $740lk per week while being suspended.  But the problem at those positions is also HURNEY.  Answering these questions explains how:

 

Aside from Kalil in 2008, name the best OL Hurney signed or drafted who would reasonably be expected to contribute to the OL today?   Silatolu in the second round is the best answer.  Before that, Otah.  Not a great record if you ask me.

 

WR is worse.  Name a WR Marty Hurney brought in via free agency or draft that is contributing in a positive manner on this or another NFL team?

 

Look at MH's record at defensive back.  Who did he ever bring in after Chris Gamble and maybe Richard Marshall?  (Godfrey, Sherrod Martin, Nakamura, and a bunch of day 3 draft picks).

 

Nowhere did he show his incompetence more than at DT.  Fua, McClain? Who else?  

 

 

 

So, not only did Gettlemen have to deal with -$16m in cap room and some idiotic contracts, he inherited a team that was not building depth at key positions.  We are now feeling the effect of not having players that were being developed.  People are criticizing Gettlemen for filling in the gaps with paste and Elmer's, but where is the foundation?

 

We don't have the cast at key positions.  One-year contracts are the only way to fill them with warm bodies until the cap crap MH created is behind us.  However, when you are building this way-weathering the storm--you need consistency somewhere.  Rivera and his staff have done pretty well considering just how bad Marty Hurney was if you step back and look at the last 2 seasons.  Fire them and you create total chaos in the organization. 

 

 

Worth reading twice imo.

[prowler2k8]

The reality, after Fox, after Hurney..a lot of holes and a bad salary cap,situation has not helped

However, I do not see the Panthers going after and getting the best staff they could get and if the goal is to go young and grow the best teachers are needed..nor do I see coaches willing or accepting that they have to adjust to the talent on hand

And btw, the best teachers are not the ones we are comfortable with...the best teachers are the ones who challenge us to grow. Shula should have not been hired and retained for the OC position is my opinion and the fact we hired a passing coordinator to help hum should have been a huge red flag. He was hired when Rivera was expected to be a lame duck coach and no one else available and then kept supposedly for continuity for Newton...not the best decision

My concern with Gettleman is the constant use of salary cap to explain things like out of 7 o linemen only two being draft. Let that sink in a moment and tell me any other pro team in that shape on the oline...I simply cannot believe there were not serviceable vets with one to 2 years left in them to get us through rebuilding that aren't better then bell and chandler and some no names from Canada as starters

Same goes for that abysmal secondary...roman Harper ..seriously...a guy whose physical skills combined with his lack of desire to play...why him...was that really the best the panthers could do?

I don't know what to think

All pro teams go through adversity. The panthers seem more capable then others of creating and sustaining their own.

I think the reality too is that they got lucky and overachieved last year and the jig is up this year along with Gettleman gambling on the dine that isn't thanks to the stupid, of Hardy and Alexander.

 

100% agree with all of this. Hiring Shula for "continuity" sake was a huge mistake by Rivera and I truly believe this was the rationale for hiring Ramsdell. And the point you made about not going after the best teachers/talent and the failure to accept/adjust accordingly has been a huge problem for this organization for a long time. The Panthers have had a 'square peg, round hole' approach to things for as long as I can remember.

[prowler2k8]

Good question, Mr. Scot

 

I see it this way--Hurney's spending spree in 2011 had lasting impact, since the contracts were largely guaranteed and about 4 years long.  That has kept us from bringing in quality free agents and has actually caused us to lose existing players because we could not afford to retain them.  Take Gross, for instance.  We cut his salary out of necessity.  If we could have allowed him to play at market value, he may have stayed for another year.  Wharton did not see the financial sense to remain.  So the ripple effect from Hurney's idiotic spending spree three years ago continues to keep the team in a strangle hold.  Money to Beason, Williams, Stewart, Johnson, etc.  is still causing problems.

 

A director is only as good as his actors. If the movie sucks, it can be for many reasons, but if the acting sucks, there is no need to look past that.  If you can't compete in free agency because you are paying players no longer on the roster or those who spend more time on the sideline than between them, it is difficult to win.  What Hurney did with contracts (starting with jake Delhomme) reeked of desperation and an inferiority complex--it was as if he thought he had to overpay to make Charlotte attractive.  Those contracts remained when he was fired--we are still dealing with them, both directly and indirectly.  For example, nobody is talking about Gross this year because he retired and lost 100 lbs.  HOWEVER, go back to when Gettlemen cut his contract (out of necessity).  Had that NOT been done and he was still being paid at fair market, might he have waited one more year or two before quitting? I think he might have.  Blame Gettlemen?  Stupid, especially when Stewart is making $200k per week riding a stationary bike. 

 

Gettlemen's nightmare is cleaning Hurney's crap off the floor, which explains why Cam is still not signed and why Hardy was not given the keys to the kingdom like CJ was.  He knows (first hand) how crippling these megadeals can be.  We all think Cam is worth the $24million, but he is a tough read.  I think he will be great with a line and some stud WRs--however, is his inconsistent play a red flag?  How good is he when the defense is not stellar?  Can he carry a team?  These are questions he must ask that will determine the fate of this team for the next 5 years or so.  A bad decision, we become the Rams or the Bills.

 

How many positions have been altered by the ridiculous contracts Hurney signed in 2011?  I would say the OL, WR, DL, and secondary have been profoundly impacted. Our secondary is full of late-rounders, old guys, nomadic free agents, etc.  That is understandable when we are paying players to ride bikes and make $740lk per week while being suspended.  But the problem at those positions is also HURNEY.  Answering these questions explains how:

 

Aside from Kalil in 2008, name the best OL Hurney signed or drafted who would reasonably be expected to contribute to the OL today?   Silatolu in the second round is the best answer.  Before that, Otah.  Not a great record if you ask me.

 

WR is worse.  Name a WR Marty Hurney brought in via free agency or draft that is contributing in a positive manner on this or another NFL team?

 

Look at MH's record at defensive back.  Who did he ever bring in after Chris Gamble and maybe Richard Marshall?  (Godfrey, Sherrod Martin, Nakamura, and a bunch of day 3 draft picks).

 

Nowhere did he show his incompetence more than at DT.  Fua, McClain? Who else?  

 

 

 

So, not only did Gettlemen have to deal with -$16m in cap room and some idiotic contracts, he inherited a team that was not building depth at key positions.  We are now feeling the effect of not having players that were being developed.  People are criticizing Gettlemen for filling in the gaps with paste and Elmer's, but where is the foundation?

 

We don't have the cast at key positions.  One-year contracts are the only way to fill them with warm bodies until the cap crap MH created is behind us.  However, when you are building this way-weathering the storm--you need consistency somewhere.  Rivera and his staff have done pretty well considering just how bad Marty Hurney was if you step back and look at the last 2 seasons.  Fire them and you create total chaos in the organization. 

 

One of the best analysis I've read about the state of our team, and it's not even close. Well said. And anyone who insists on blaming and/or suggesting we replace Gettlemen should read this.