Top franchise cornerstones

[CelibatePimp]

dude makes his living out of the pocket, off the playaction pass, with what used to be a top defense. Noticehow that defense isnt what it used to be, and here comes the loses. Russell was tasked to actually lead his team down the feild and win a game for once in his life. Threw a dumb pass to a RB for like 5 yards with only seconds left, and then throws an aweful pick.

 

The same play that worked against the Redskins. It's obvious he does not see and is not comfortable in the pocket. Defenses are keying in on that.

 

[TonyN]

Dalton's playing at home against the worst secondary in the league and a front 7 that is a shell of its former self and merely decent at this point. Cam's playing away against probably the best defense in the AFC. Dalton has Gio and a run game and Sanu is no scrub. Cam had no running game watsoever so the defense was always playing for him not our RBs. And Dalton was not as good as Cam with all that in his favor... Dalton threw 2 picks

Remember the intellectual honesty caveat?

 

Carolina is 20th against the pass this season.

Cincinnati is 22nd against the pass this season.

 

Carolina is 26th in total defense

Cincinnati is 28th in total defense. 

 

Bernard had the big 89 yard pop...otherwise he had 17 attempts for 47 yards.

 

Is Sanu better than Benjamin?

Is Gresham better than Olsen?

 

As far as Carolina not having a running game...almost all of Newton's rushing yards happened when Bengal defenders bit on the zone fake and disregarded the threat of the QB run. Meanwhile, the Carolina offensive line quite possibly played better than Cincinnati's offensive line: Carolina had 46 passing attempts, 0 sacks and 4 QB hits all day. Along with 147 rushing yards with some nice blocking on the edge. 

[Luck's neckbeard]

Newton & Luck are pretty similar at this point. 1A-1B, & I can admit that.

What I cannot, & will not, accept is the media proclaiming Luck to be by far the better QB. They act as if comparing Newton to him is an insult. Then they act like Cam has all these flaws & continuously must prove he belongs.

It's horseshit.

It's just what ESPN does. Look at baseball. Madison Bumgarner is close to winning his 3rd World Series. He just turned 25 a few weeks ago. He's been a top 15 pitcher in baseball for 3 years, & lights out in 3 different postseasons. Yet he gets little to no praise while bums like Stephen Strasburg are heralded & praised as the 2nd coming of God.

It's not gonna change.

[joemac]

Why does it have to be Cam or Luck? They are both great QBs, they are both young and will both continue to get better. Anyone who denies Luck is a great player and one of the top young QBs is either blind or just a straight up hater. Luck is really really good. Cam is really really good. Peyton had Brady, and it seems to me the next 2 truly great QBs are going to be Andrew Luck and Cam Newton.

I would not trade Cam for any other player in the league, but if I had to pick one other guy it would be Luck, bottom line. I guess some people here will forever have sand in their vaginas because of the perceived diss from Luck when he decided to stay in school instead of coming to us. In reality I highly doubt that had much to do with him not wanting to play for us, and much more that he wanted to stay at Stanford and finish his degree...crazy talk right?

[ed bell]

Hey look everybody, it an Andrew Luck thread

[ncmonzta]

Cam Newton > Andrew Luck... & it's not even close

"Luck wins more games!"

I know that is what all of you mental midgets and proud He-Man-Cam-Haters-Club members are shouting at your screen right now, as you furiously type away in response after reading the first line. Let's go ahead and show why Luck's team has a better W/L record than Newton's. Yes, winning is a team stat. There is a reason why Trent Dilfer has the same number of Super Bowl rings as Peyton Manning and Dan Marino combined. Football is the ultimate team sport.

Strength of Schedule

IND- #14, #30, #32

CAR- #1, #10, #1, #22

IND- 355-411-2 (46.2%)

CAR- 530-490-4 (51.8%)

There it is, folks. This is completely self-explanatory, although I know some still won't manage to comprehend it. The Colts have literally played the easiest schedule in the entire NFL throughout Luck's career, while Carolina has played the toughest schedule in Newton's career. All those wins against terrible teams. Luck has only beat 1 more team with a winning record. Short of being Ryan Leaf, or an autistic monkey, Luck should have a better record than Newton.

Wait, there's more. Right? Luck is the great comeback kid! Newton just doesn't have it. Wrong. Again, wins are a team stat. Newton can't do everything by himself. Did you know that Newton has more 4th quarter go ahead scores than Luck? That's right. Newton is actually Mr. Clutch, not Luck. The difference? Carolina's defense blew pretty much every one of those leads in Newton's first two years. Again, it's a team sport.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, let's take a look at their stats. Going by what 99% of the media says, this should be no contest. Right? Luck is heralded as the best young quarterback in the league and an elite, MVP-caliber player. On the other hand, Newton is still questioned by most and needs to prove himself worthy as a "franchise" quarterback.

QB Rating, Cmp %, Yd per play, Td per play, t/o per play

Andrew Luck: 84.7, 58.6, 6.7, .046, .026

Cam Newton: 87.0, 60.0, 7.2, .049, .025

I'll go ahead and type that out for you, incase you have trouble reading charts.

Panthers QB Cam Newton, who entered the league extremely raw and inexperienced, has a better quarterback rating, higher completion percentage, gains more yards per play, scores more touchdowns per play, and commits fewer turnovers per play than Colts QB Andrew Luck, who entered the league very experienced and considered a finished product. Cam is putting up better numbers across the board while playing against much tougher competition.

Cam Newton is better than Andrew Luck. That's right, I said it.

***

I only compared Luck & Newton for a very specific reason. They play in a different era than guys like Marino, Elway, etc. They are also in entirely different situations from guys like Kaepernick and Wilson, who were drafted in middle rounds by very good teams. Luck & Newton were drafted #1 overall in back to back seasons, giving them a very similar situation.

I listed their stats in the most unbiased way possible. It breaks their production down to a per play basis, which makes it impossible to favor one over the other. I'll list the numbers incase you don't trust my math, or are just in denial that Luck is inferior to Newton. FYI; don't bother splitting the rushing & passing into two comparisons, you won't like what you find.

1,608 plays, 10,908 yards, 74 touchdowns, 42 turnovers

2,046 plays, 14,780 yards, 100 touchdowns, 52 turnovers

Edit #1

"Derp! Derp! Luck won a playoff game!"

IND- 11-5 (1-1) lost Div Rd

CAR- 12-4 (0-1) lost Div Rd

You're right, he did. I can't deny that Luck needed an extra game to get his 12th win and reach the Divisional Round. I'm sorry Cam was better at that, too.

Edit #2

TL;DR

Luck is better than Newton, just watch ESPN.

Edit #3

how dare you use facts. I'm gonna be like the rest of these realist and ignore all that truth. Since its blasphemy to admit Cam is a overall better Qb and football player than Luck, I'll hide behind the "they're both great" 1a and 1aaaa herpy derpy.

[CelibatePimp]

 

Remember the intellectual honesty caveat?

 

Carolina is 20th against the pass this season.

Cincinnati is 22nd against the pass this season.

 

Carolina is 26th in total defense

Cincinnati is 28th in total defense. 

 

Bernard had the big 89 yard pop...otherwise he had 17 attempts for 47 yards.

 

Is Sanu better than Benjamin?

Is Gresham better than Olsen?

 

As far as Carolina not having a running game...almost all of Newton's rushing yards happened when Bengal defenders bit on the zone fake and disregarded the threat of the QB run. Meanwhile, the Carolina offensive line quite possibly played better than Cincinnati's offensive line: Carolina had 46 passing attempts, 0 sacks and 4 QB hits all day. Along with 147 rushing yards with some nice blocking on the edge. 

 attempts per game against CIN, they have allowed close to 300yds less of passing. That should tell you how bad we are

 

I dunno where you are getting your stats from but CIN is 13th against the pass and CAR is 23rd in pass defense. You might wanna double check that.

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_NET_YARDS&tabSeq=2&season=2014&role=OPP&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&qualified=false

[TheRed]

Pretty disappointing that TonyN is still around. I'd rather read a Big A post than his played out pre draft 2011 drivel.

[TonyN]

I dunno where you are getting your stats from but CIN is 13th against the pass and CAR is 23rd in pass defense. You might wanna double check that.

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_NET_YARDS&tabSeq=2&season=2014&role=OPP&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&qualified=false

 

The stats I posted are based on yards per game, not total yards.

 

The Bengals have played one fewer game than the Panthers...thus the disparity in "total yards" allowed.

 

Carolina is 20th in passing yards allowed per game, allowing 252.

 

Cincinnati is 22nd in passing yards allowed per game, allowing 257.

[CelibatePimp]

The stats I posted are based on yards per game, not total yards.

 

The Bengals have played one fewer game than the Panthers...thus in the disparity in "total yards" allowed.

 

Carolina is 20th in passing yards per game, allowing 252.

 

Cincinnati is 22nd in passing yards per game, allowing 257.

 

Yes CIN is allow 5yds more per game LOL. Dude, basically our defenses are both bad but away from home where people hardly win, the visitor came in an forced a tie. There is a reason why we have home field advantage. We can talk about Dalton's 163yds at home against TEN with Green playing...

 

Prior to Newton playing, QB playing in CIN have been held to under 240yds...

[CRA]

John Elway was a running QB.... & he was running around & winning back to back SB's at nearly 40 years old.

It's a complete garbage & straw man excuse to pick Luck over Cam because Cam won't last as long because he runs. Especially considering Luck is the one with the bad knees.

Steve Young ran into his late 30s. Almost at 40

[MeatSoda]

If Cam is ever mentioned again in the same sentence as that mouth-breather Rapelisberger I will lose my poo. 

[TonyN]

Yes, the defenses have both been equally bad. That was my point. I was responding to the silly argument that Dalton was playing against the "worst secondary in the league", while Newton was supposedly playing against the "best defense in the AFC".

 

You can talk about Dalton's 163 yard against Ten in a 33-7 win all you wish. The game was over at halftime. Jason Campbell finished the game for Cincinnati. The Bengals just ran the clock out in the 2nd half. 

 

As far as Cin not giving up more than 240 yard in a game at home this year...not only is the sample size to small to matter...I would not consider 280 in 5 quarters to be a vast improvement.

 

Here's the bottom line: Both QB's put up big numbers against bad defenses. That's all that happened on Sunday. 

[CelibatePimp]

Yes, the defenses have both been equally bad. That was my point. I was responding to the silly argument that Dalton was playing against the "worst secondary in the league", while Newton was supposedly playing against the "best defense in the AFC".

 

You can talk about Dalton's 163 yard against Ten in a 33-7 win all you wish. The game was over at halftime. Jason Campbell finished the game for Cincinnati. The Bengals just ran the clock out in the 2nd half. 

 

As far as Cin not giving up more than 240 yard in a game at home this year...not only is the sample size to small to matter...I would not consider 280 in 5 quarters to be a vast improvement.

 

Here's the bottom line: Both QB's put up big numbers against bad defenses. That's all that happened on Sunday. 

 

And this is the issue that people have with people like you. You use stats to say Dalton is as good as Newton but then when people argue that Cam is better than or equal to Luck using stats, you say no.