Cam v. Luck - The "Build Around" Philosophy

[Ruff]

the thing with greg is its 13 for just this year. we made no long term committment. some of those players you listed are just as bad as bell and chandler and they are less than half the cost. seriously. and they haven't been in this system for 4 years. others were so massively overpaid we couldn't match it.

 

i'm not oblivious to the problems at o line. and if you think gettleman is oblivious or is somehow too prideful i really don't know what else to say to you. i honestly don't think people realize just how bad our cap is.

 

we are what 16 million under the cap right now and next year were gonna be over by millions. LOL. that is insanity. i think DG really looked at it and said what can help us win right now the most without sacrificing the future. Before the hardy fiasco he decided keeping that monster front 7 and letting Cam be Cam would be enough to keep us competitive. It's sad but that is the state of the panthers organization.

 

it absolutely sucks cam doesn't have a decent oline and has UDFA for tackles. it's embarrassing. but you give the contract that the bucs gave that guy and have 6 million per year cap hit for 5 years and we can't afford that (and honestly it would have to ahve been more) that is unbelievable but it's reality. I honestly don't know what were gonna do. Next year? were still majorily cap challenged. This is going to be bad. But what's crazy. we're still a competitive football team.

 

as for the four years thing? i think we were a mess of an organization for the first two, these next two have been trying to stop the bleeding.

 

Here's my issue. I get that people talk about our cap hit, and I understand that it's bad. However, when you looked at our team last year, it was only a matter of time before guys like Gross and Wharton retired (this was the case two years ago, also). We could've easily been setting up for the future. Yeah, we drafted Amini, which is awesome, but, coming back from an ACL injury is hard (happened early last year). We draft Trai Turner, but starting a rookie on the offensive line is a precarious thing to do. So, we signed Velasco... That dude has been garbage. 

 

It's just hard to imagine that there wasn't someone available (through draft OR free agency) that is better than Nate Chandler, who had never played a down at RT in his career, Byron Bell, who had never played left tackle in his life, or couldn't provide depth to Ryan Kalil. I mean, we're in a situation where, if Ryan Kalil gets hurt, we're fuged for good. Like, "pack it in, we're done here" good. 

 

The point of this thread is, like I said, to not focus on just this year and scream "CAP HELL WE'RE IN IT!!!~!~!!!!", but to look at the long, overall picture since Cam has come into the league. I mean, what have we done for the guy? Drafted Kelvin Benjamin in his fourth year? Traded for Olsen but let Shockey walk at the end of the season? Got Tolbert who, honestly, is nothing more than a dude who can prevent DeAngelo from getting hit as much... On top of all of that, we got him Shula. Mike fuging Shula. (which could be an argument in itself; when Arians left as Luck's OC, were they content with just promoting someone from within because of "consistency"? nope. they went to his former school and got a college coordinator.)

 

Also, to your point about Gettleman being too prideful? I think he might be. In fact, Mr. Scot has posted about "Rudys" or whatever the fug he said, and how Rivera likes to stick to them. I think that's the case with both Rivera and Gettleman. They both like dudes who work hard and overachieve. That's awesome, and it works out great... sometimes. But banking an entire season on it, and your franchise QB's health on it? That's risky as fug. I know Gettleman's dick gets hard when he sees a QB get sacked, but, guess what, the NFL changes. Yeah, that might've worked for the Giants years ago. Now, what do those same Giants do? Pass the ball up-tempo and scheme to beat you. The NFL is a game where you have to be ahead of the curve or you're left out in the cold... Using too many overachievers, while focusing on one single part of your team with investments, isn't going to help that cause.

[teeray]

Here's my issue. I get that people talk about our cap hit, and I understand that it's bad. However, when you looked at our team last year, it was only a matter of time before guys like Gross and Wharton retired (this was the case two years ago, also). We could've easily been setting up for the future. Yeah, we drafted Amini, which is awesome, but, coming back from an ACL injury is hard (happened early last year). We draft Trai Turner, but starting a rookie on the offensive line is a precarious thing to do. So, we signed Velasco... That dude has been garbage.

It's just hard to imagine that there wasn't someone available (through draft OR free agency) that is better than Nate Chandler, who had never played a down at RT in his career, Byron Bell, who had never played left tackle in his life, or couldn't provide depth to Ryan Kalil. I mean, we're in a situation where, if Ryan Kalil gets hurt, we're fuged for good. Like, "pack it in, we're done here" good.

The point of this thread is, like I said, to not focus on just this year and scream "CAP HELL WE'RE IN IT!!!~!~!!!!", but to look at the long, overall picture since Cam has come into the league. I mean, what have we done for the guy? Drafted Kelvin Benjamin in his fourth year? Traded for Olsen but let Shockey walk at the end of the season? Got Tolbert who, honestly, is nothing more than a dude who can prevent DeAngelo from getting hit as much... On top of all of that, we got him Shula. Mike fuging Shula. (which could be an argument in itself; when Arians left as Luck's OC, were they content with just promoting someone from within because of "consistency"? nope. they went to his former school and got a college coordinator.)

Also, to your point about Gettleman being too prideful? I think he might be. In fact, Mr. Scot has posted about "Rudys" or whatever the fug he said, and how Rivera likes to stick to them. I think that's the case with both Rivera and Gettleman. They both like dudes who work hard and overachieve. That's awesome, and it works out great... sometimes. But banking an entire season on it, and your franchise QB's health on it? That's risky as fug. I know Gettleman's dick gets hard when he sees a QB get sacked, but, guess what, the NFL changes. Yeah, that might've worked for the Giants years ago. Now, what do those same Giants do? Pass the ball up-tempo and scheme to beat you. The NFL is a game where you have to be ahead of the curve or you're left out in the cold... Using too many overachievers, while focusing on one single part of your team with investments, isn't going to help that cause.

We need to have money to extend Cam. We need money to extend Kuechly.

Signing guys to multi year contracts and the state of our cap, that means we likely have to let one or the other walk.

Gettleman is trying to get us set up so we can be good for the long haul, not for just 2014.

Doesn't mean Gettleman is beyond reproach and it is fair to question what he is doing, but the idea behind it is trying to set us up for sustained long term success.

I hated that guys like Ginn and Mitchell left, but we simply can't afford them after the seasons they had. Until this dead money starts coming off the books we are going to continue bargain shopping for short term contracts and developing our young talent on the roster, instead of over spending in FA

[teeray]

And these days, with the state of FA you are either overspending or dumpster diving.

We will be dumpster divers next couple of years.

[TheRumGone]

Here's my issue. I get that people talk about our cap hit, and I understand that it's bad. However, when you looked at our team last year, it was only a matter of time before guys like Gross and Wharton retired (this was the case two years ago, also). We could've easily been setting up for the future. Yeah, we drafted Amini, which is awesome, but, coming back from an ACL injury is hard (happened early last year). We draft Trai Turner, but starting a rookie on the offensive line is a precarious thing to do. So, we signed Velasco... That dude has been garbage.

It's just hard to imagine that there wasn't someone available (through draft OR free agency) that is better than Nate Chandler, who had never played a down at RT in his career, Byron Bell, who had never played left tackle in his life, or couldn't provide depth to Ryan Kalil. I mean, we're in a situation where, if Ryan Kalil gets hurt, we're fuged for good. Like, "pack it in, we're done here" good.

The point of this thread is, like I said, to not focus on just this year and scream "CAP HELL WE'RE IN IT!!!~!~!!!!", but to look at the long, overall picture since Cam has come into the league. I mean, what have we done for the guy? Drafted Kelvin Benjamin in his fourth year? Traded for Olsen but let Shockey walk at the end of the season? Got Tolbert who, honestly, is nothing more than a dude who can prevent DeAngelo from getting hit as much... On top of all of that, we got him Shula. Mike fuging Shula. (which could be an argument in itself; when Arians left as Luck's OC, were they content with just promoting someone from within because of "consistency"? nope. they went to his former school and got a college coordinator.)

Also, to your point about Gettleman being too prideful? I think he might be. In fact, Mr. Scot has posted about "Rudys" or whatever the fug he said, and how Rivera likes to stick to them. I think that's the case with both Rivera and Gettleman. They both like dudes who work hard and overachieve. That's awesome, and it works out great... sometimes. But banking an entire season on it, and your franchise QB's health on it? That's risky as fug. I know Gettleman's dick gets hard when he sees a QB get sacked, but, guess what, the NFL changes. Yeah, that might've worked for the Giants years ago. Now, what do those same Giants do? Pass the ball up-tempo and scheme to beat you. The NFL is a game where you have to be ahead of the curve or you're left out in the cold... Using too many overachievers, while focusing on one single part of your team with investments, isn't going to help that cause.

Bell was a lt throughout college.

The rest is meh. I can scream cap challenged and overachievers as much as I want because it's fuging true. We have no money. Zero, zip, nada.

You wanna know what else is scary? Unless a bonafide monster tackle falls into our laps in the draft we will be looking at a similar line next year. And it's not because dg wants it like that it's because we are flat out broke and making moves to save money for Luke and cam.

But continue thinking spending 20 million on giacomo makes complete sense. Lol dude.

Only way we can change this is through the draft. Let's see what happens.

Edit: I think it was a week ago I was in your position. We could have let hardy walk and signed someone like Collins. Look at the numbers. We can't sign anybody to a five year deal right now

[heel31ok]

Bullshit. Our line is pathetic. There were plenty of tackle options at the start of free agency. We had options to upgrade our line overall.

 

yes we did , just playing the popular G-man knows everything card. My favorite quote is "the O-line is fine."

[heel31ok]

Great post TC.

 

I think Andrew is and will continue to be better than Cam. But clearly our front office has made no conscience effort to set our franchise qb up for better success, with the exception of Kelvin.

how about some gas on the fire ? does Luck make people around him better ? Does Cam make people around him better?

[Oudaman90]

Yes and Yes.

[Oudaman90]

I think Luck is an exceptional quarterback. No debate there. Is he putting up better numbers than Cam? Yes, without a doubt. Is it because he is a better quarterback than Cam? No. I try to look at the situations of both of them.

Andrew Luck

Luck is in an offensive scheme that allows him to pass 40+ times a game. His o-line is buying him time to make deep throws to his receivers and tight ends. He has a do-every-receiver in Wayne, a good deep threat in Hilton, a big, powerful TE in Allen to pair with a WR-like TE in Fleener. While his running game isn't the best, they do run the ball effectively outside of Luck. This keeps the defense honest. Luck also is able to go no-huddle quite a bit. Its a great set up that plays to his strengths.

Pep Hamilton tried the "ball control, run heavy, power football" last year and Luck's performance suffered. Was Luck the blame? Nope. You can only do what you're allowed to do.

Cam Newton

This year Cam is still primarily in a "ball control, run heavy" offensive scheme. Problem is, we can't run. His o-line is allowing alot of pressure and sacks. He has a very talent but raw big receiver in Benjamin, a wr-like TE in Olsen, and complimentary possession receivers in Avant, Cotchery, and Bersin. And a slot guy in Brown. His running backs are either injured or jags, or injured jags. Nuff said.

This team is at its best when Cam calls plays(no-huddle).

[MadHatter]

Can is a hell of a QB....and Luck is a hell of a QB.

Some of you douchebags need to get over it.

[ckad79]

A good defense will go a long way to help than offensive weapons. I mean Matt Ryan has a lot of weapons but ATL is going nowhere fast. Though we have less weapons than ATL, we were able to do better because of defense.

 

I agree, if we put all that emphasis about building the offense through the draft, than everything would be complaining about our defense. lol

[Silent Majority]

Amazing, maybe not so much. The same blow-hard assholes, who are soo quick to poo on the stud QB of THIS franchise, trip over themselves to see who can felate a random ass qb of another team.

[Jangler]

the inferior complex over Luck is getting to epically stupid proportions.

[CRA]

If you look at all the players Indy has brought in. You could dismiss them as easily as you have dismissed all of the guys we brought in. How many difference makers have they added?

Only one we brought in was Kelvin.

Colts have had 8 picks in the first 3 rounds since the Luck selection was made.....7 of those 8 were to build around their QB.

They drafted him 2 well rounded TEs bc Luck has always used a heavy TE scheme. They have Olsen like potential.

Did you watch TJ the other night? Dude is legit.

Plus, Luck has been there a shorter length of time and they have done more bulding around him.

[Navy_football]

While watching the Colts game against the Texans, I paid particular attention to Luck to see what all the hype was about. He is the real deal. Much better pocket awareness than Cam. He can make all the throws and really understands where his targets are at all times. I will say that most of his throws are to wide open receivers and the Colts o-line gives him plenty of time to go through his progressions. I really think Cam could do amazing things with that scheme, receiving corp and o-line.

I honestly don't think Luck is as far ahead of Cam as the talking heads try to make it - if any. Luck probably has the edge on pocket awareness. But Cam's elusiveness outside the pocket is on par with the best I've ever seen, particularly a guy his size. All things considered, I'd take a healthy Cam for those broken play, no one's open runs that make him so dangerous and exciting to watch.