Vick is an Eagle

[Fireball77]

But I liked what I heard. If this guy can actually get through to thug larvae everywhere that animal abuse is fugged up, maybe him coming back and staying in the spotlight is a positive.

Did he actually stop saying weak stuff like, "I MADE A MISTAKE" and "I HAD BAD INFLUENCES AROUND ME" and "I DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS WRONG WHEN I WAS A CHILD" and say instead "I made horrible decisions" and "I am responsible for every bit of trouble I was in"? Because if he didn't, color me thouroughly unimpressed. I have never heard him say any of the latter, only the former.

[Cat]

Just read about the interview with Vick. Seems like he gets it, well see.

I certainly have no problem giving him a second chance on the field and as a person

[Mr. Scot]

What is it with your hard-on over people supposedly hating on black QBs for their blackness? Is it because you believe that the 'conventional' thinking is that a black man is not 'smart' enough to play QB? Or is it something else? Serious question...

KT has this thing where only run-first QBs like Michael Vick or Vince Young can be considered "true" black quarterbacks.

Guys who are primarily passers like Warren Moon, David Garrard, Rodney Peete or Steve McNair play football "the white man's way" so they're "Uncle Toms". Only guys who insist on running first and refuse to learn to be good passers can be considered "real" black quarterbacks.

(sheesh)

For those who can see the truth though, the real story isn't black QBs vs white QBs. It's run-first QBs vs pass-first QBs.

And the reality is that no matter how many guys come along with bombastic agents and idiot sportscasters heralding how they're going to "change the game", passers have always been - and more than likely always will be - more successful than runners. This is true no matter what color they are. Just ask Eric Crouch.

I'll say it again. Regardless of skin color...

- Guys who can pass and run (like Donovan McNabb, David Garrard, Steve McNair, John Elway and Steve Young) are gold.

- Guys who can pass but can't run (like Warren Moon, Byron Leftwich, Joe Montana or Dan Marino) are silver.

- Guys who can run, even run well, but can't pass (like Michael Vick, Vince Young, Craig Krenzel, Chris Weinke, Randy Fasani and Eric Crouch) are iron pyrite (i.e. Fool's Gold).

Individual character qualities, work ethic and other factors play a part in overall success, but as far as starting skill set, the above is pretty much set in stone.

With group three, even the best of them can only take you so far. Most coaches these days are smart enough to know it, which is why running QBs (again, regardless of color) from college have a tendency to wind up switching positions when they get to the pros.

So where does a guy like Pat White fall in this? Right now, it's unknown. Rich Rodriguez never concentrated on developing him as a passer, something which lessened his chances for success as a pro. There are other factors working against him too. White's short for an NFL QB (6'0) and spent most of his college career in a gimmicky offense rather than a pro-style attack. Those things put him a little bit behind the eight ball.

Luckily for White, Bill Stewart actually tried to develop his passing skills. Like Jim Tressel did for Troy Smith at Ohio State, Stewart tried to give White the tools that would make him a success at the pro level, not just in college. Height and lack of pro-style experience worked against Smith as well though, and he has yet to blossom as a pro. Depending on how well the Dolphins coach him up - and how well he responds - White may do better, or he may not.

Bottom Line for White: Like Troy Smith before him, he does indeed have obstacles to overcome if he wants to be a success as a pro...

...but skin color isn't one of them :nonod:

[X-Clown]

- Guys who can run, even run well, but can't pass like Chris Weinke are iron pyrite (i.e. Fool's Gold).

????

[Mr. Scot]

????

Weinke had his fair share of rushing TDs as a rookie.

He wasn't a great runner, but he was a better runner than passer, so I included him as an example.

[X-Clown]

Weinke had his fair share of rushing TDs as a rookie.

He wasn't a great runner, but he was a better runner than passer, so I included him as an example.

IIRC, he scored all of majority of his TDs from the one yard line on QB sneaks because our running backs were so terrible. I think it's safe to say that he wasn't good at either one.

[King Taharqa]

KT has this thing where only run-first QBs like Michael Vick or Vince Young can be considered "true" black quarterbacks.

Thats why I always big up McNabb right?

Guys who are primarily passers like Warren Moon, David Garrard, Rodney Peete or Steve McNair play football "the white man's way" so they're "Uncle Toms". Only guys who insist on running first and refuse to learn to be good passers can be considered "real" black quarterbacks.

Moon and McNair have both made it to my sig, so I dont know why you would say I call them "uncle toms". The Garrards, the Peetes, the Campbells all get props and pats on the back from you because they are mediocre QBs who are no threat to being considered the best. I remember the "name your top 10 QBs list" thread made awhile back and I didnt see the Garrards, Campbells, etc in yours or anybody's top ten list. And yet these are the guys black QBs should emulate? LMAO. No one is ever gonna say Garrard is as good as Drew Brees or Campbell is as good as Carson Palmer so its OK to acknowledge and hype them up. The high profile guys like McNabb, Cunningham, Vick, etc who HAVE won big games, who do receive praise, who are stars are the ones you want to overscrutinize and diminish. It'd be like me hyping up Joey Harrington, Damon Huard, & David Carr as examples of quality white QBs, then turning around and being overly critical of guys like Brady, Brees, and Manning. Its not a complex thing, its just hate. Just answer me this Scott, who is a better passer? Don McNabb or Jake Delhomme?

[Mr. Scot]

Moon and McNair have both made it to my sig, so I dont know why you would say I call them "uncle toms". The Garrards, the Peetes, the Campbells all get props and pats on the back from you because they are mediocre QBs who are no threat to being considered the best.

So I only support black QBs who aren't that good because they're no threat to the white man. Riiiiiight.

(that's the silliest thing I've read in a long time)

I remember the "name your top 10 QBs list" thread made awhile back and I didnt see the Garrards, Campbells, etc in yours or anybody's top ten list. And yet these are the guys black QBs should emulate? LMAO.

Doubt I posted a list, if I even posted in that thread at all. I'm not big on "top ten" lists. Your attempt at a point here isn't worth much...if anything.

No one is ever gonna say Garrard is as good as Drew Brees or Campbell is as good as Carson Palmer so its OK to acknowledge and hype them up. The high profile guys like McNabb, Cunningham, Vick, etc who HAVE won big games, who do receive praise, who are stars are the ones you want to overscrutinize and diminish. It'd be like me hyping up Joey Harrington, Damon Huard, & David Carr as examples of quality white QBs, then turning around and being overly critical of guys like Brady, Brees, and Manning.

Continuation of the above, and still worthless.

Try reading this part again. See if you actually get it this time.

Individual character qualities, work ethic and other factors play a part in overall success, but as far as starting skill set, the above is pretty much set in stone.

The message was about the quality of the skill set, not the quality of the QB. It's a message that you obviously didn't really comprehend, because your whole argument is based in a misconception.

Its not a complex thing, its just hate. Just answer me this Scott, who is a better passer? Don McNabb or Jake Delhomme?

McNabb, but not by as much as you'd think. He's got the arm and the athleticism, but not the intangibles. he's choked in numerous big games, including the infamous upchuck in the Super Bowl.

And actually, it is a complex thing, but as per your usual MO, you're going to go the lowbrow route and try to accuse me of being racist. Here's the thing though: everyone who knows me, on this board or off, knows I'm not. You try to do it to others on a pretty regular basis. It doesn't wash with me. So any attempt to label me as such is pretty much an admission on your part that you can't keep up in the debate.

So here's the ground rules: You have two, and only two choices if you want to debate the issues here with me.

1) You can argue without any overt or implied charges of racism.

...OR...

2) You can admit defeat.

If you choose to cry racism, race hate, race based thinking or anything of the sort, whether up front or subliminal, you lose. Plain and simple, no excuses and no justifications, debate's over and that's all there is to it.

To put it another way, in this game, you have no race card to play. If you attempt to resort to it, you admit defeat. If you complain about not being able to use it, you admit defeat. If you cry that the rules are unfair, you admit defeat. No options.

Either argue without resorting to race, or admit defeat.

Your call; no other choices.

[c0r]

I remember the "name your top 10 QBs list" thread made awhile back and I didnt see the Garrards, Campbells, etc in yours or anybody's top ten list.

LOL

thats because they arent top 10 QBs.

[King Taharqa]

McNabb, but not by as much as you'd think. He's got the arm and the athleticism, but not the intangibles. he's choked in numerous big games, including the infamous upchuck in the Super Bowl.

This is a guy who's passing stats supercede Jake's by a mile and you say "not by as much as you think". Comedy. McNabb has one of the best TD to INT ratios in the history of the game, everytime Delhomme drops back we as Panthers fans hold our breath. That same Arizona team last year that Jake wet the bed against and gave the ball 6 times to, Don posted 300 yards against and rallied his team against. You would be hard pressed to walk on the street and find NFL fans who would take a Jake Delhomme over a Don McNabb. But again, since he's a black QB who has athletic ability its illegal to praise him as a passer without throwing some backhanded shot at him.

And actually, it is a complex thing, but as per your usual MO, you're going to go the lowbrow route and try to accuse me of being racist. Here's the thing though: everyone who knows me, on this board or off, knows I'm not. You try to do it to others on a pretty regular basis. It doesn't wash with me. So any attempt to label me as such is pretty much an admission on your part that you can't keep up in the debate.

Im not accusing you of being racist, I am accusing you of being biased in favor of more traditional white QBs. If you had a McNabb or Vick at your disposal you would be clueless in how to utilize them and would ask them to move to another position in favor of a player with less talent because you lack the vision to use their skillset. I am accusing you of being one dimensional and close minded in your belief that a QB is one thing. I am accusing you of going out of your way to diminish the McNabbs, Vicks, Cunninghams because they hold ability that white QBs dont. You hold McNabb and Vick to a standard that you dont hold those other guys to. McNabb gotta be Superman before you'll admit he's better or as good as other QBs who cant elude a rush. Who cant turn a dead play into a 15-20 yard gain. Who cant make plays outside of the pocket. If Jake or Brees or whoever posts a 300 yard performance, you're not gonna tell us "how inaccurate they looked doing it" or tell us how their final drive went. They will receive the praise they deserve.

If you choose to cry racism, race hate, race based thinking or anything of the sort, whether up front or subliminal, you lose. Plain and simple, no excuses and no justifications, debate's over and that's all there is to it.

Ill take that as your concession to defeat because its hard to argue in a league that is 70% black why the most critical position on the football field remains 90-95% white. Its the worst kept secret in football, and if you think I'm the only black NFL fan to notice, you are sadly mistaken sir. This is the information age man, its gonna be harder and harder to keep this charade going. Quarterbacks play a pivotal role in the marketing of football teams, they are the "faces" of franchises. If we reduce the number of white QBs in this league, the only white players you'd have left generally speaking in this league would be at linemen and special teams. And its hard to market a lineman as your face. Its hard to market a kicker as your face. This would effectively turn the NFL into the NBA (a "black league") and probably alienate alot of NFL fans (like yourself) because we know how much the NFL old guard hates the NBA. LOL. So is it surprising any black QB who's hyped as bringing "change to the position" folks go out of their way to hate? Is it surprising when we name great passers of the game, black QBs names never come up despite the fact there have been some guys to make their mark in this game? The truth is, we dont want change. We dont want to be out there looking for the next McNabb or the next Doug Williams. We dont want to draft a black QB and waste a potential roster spot that could go to a more traditional marginal QB. We dont want to believe that the days of the 6'5 240 lb non-mobile stiff dropping back throwing passes is over. We dont want to acknowledge that the Charlotte Bobcats have had more black GMs in their 6 year history than the ENTIRE NFL has had in 75 years. We want to keep our little racket going and pray that the black NFL players & NFL fans dont notice whats going on.

[King Taharqa]

LOL

thats because they arent top 10 QBs.

But according to Scott, these are the guys black QBs should try to be like and mold their games after. LOL.

[Matt Foley]

Rush Limbaugh was right about McNabb, KT. Rush is a pompous ass, but he hit the nail on the head. McNabb doesn't even know the rules of overtime.

I think Warren Moon is the best black QB ever, and I would put him in the top 10 of all time. He won championships, multiple championships, just not in the NFL because no one would give him a chance.

Don't hand me any "you hate black quarterbacks" crap because my Rams had one of the first. I remember James Harris getting the Rams from their own one yard line to the Vikings one yard line in two throws in an NFC Championship game in Minnesota. I loved James Harris.

I just think McNabb is overrated as hell. And I'm here to tell you...watch out for Leftwich in Tampa.

[King Taharqa]

Rush Limbaugh was right about McNabb, KT. Rush is a pompous ass, but he hit the nail on the head. McNabb doesn't even know the rules of overtime.

I think Warren Moon is the best black QB ever, and I would put him in the top 10 of all time. He won championships, multiple championships, just not in the NFL because no one would give him a chance.

Don't hand me any "you hate black quarterbacks" crap because my Rams had one of the first. I remember James Harris getting the Rams from their own one yard line to the Vikings one yard line in two throws in an NFC Championship game in Minnesota. I loved James Harris.

I just think McNabb is overrated as hell. And I'm here to tell you...watch out for Leftwich in Tampa.

Rush was DEAD WRONG. If McNabb was out of the league right now or #2 on someone's depth chart, he would've been right. But McNabb is the only QB left standing from his draft class. He's been to 5 pro bowls, 5 NFC championships, and a Super Bowl. He's thrown for close to 200 TDs, and 30,000 passing yards. Give Carson Palmer, Drew Brees, Phillip Rivers, Chad Pennington, or any other QB that resume and no one will call them overrated.

[The Link]

Why do you make everything a race issue?