Fixing the running game a.k.a same story,different year

[Navy_football]

Honestly not sure how we can critique any aspect of the offense yet. No Cam and what the 3rd string running back? I think they were pretty entertaining and competitive all things considered.

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[CPantherKing]

Let me present this critical view of the running game like this:

 

When it is 3rd and 2 and you have no choice but to run it, when it is anything - 3rd and 1, 3rd and a half... anything.  When everyone on the field, in the stadium and the world know the Carolina Panthers are going to run it how much faith do you have that the team will be able to convert that play to a first down where it matters?

 

Take Cam Newton out of your thoughts and just put it on the RB's and team - no Newton carrying the ball.  Can the RB's carry it?  Can they truly carry it?  Can they carry the load, haul the rock, and bring home the baby when the pressure is on the line?

 

I have a hard time believing that even with a top 5 OL unit that the Panthers RB's could get this done.  Maybe I am a bit spoiled from what I am accustomed to over the last 15-20 years from the Bills - but I just do not sit comfortable with the stall of RB's in Carolina.  I really hope this can change, I really hope durability and reliability improve, and I hope that it is a result of the RB's finding their own success without having bailouts from Cam and the passing game, as well.

 

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/player-rushing-first-down-percentage/2013/

 

Cam Newton has been #1 on 1st down percentage in the league the past 3 seasons.

 

Jonathan Stewart was #2 in 2011 and Mike Tolbert was #2 in 2013

 

Mike Tobert was over 44.4% in 2012, but he only had 54 carries.

 

5 of the top 6 for rushing first down percentage in the past 3 seasons of all rushers in 3 seasons.

 

I have no doubt the Panthers have what they need to get first downs and move the ball into the red zone while eating up the clock.

 

The Panthers issue has been red zone offense in 2012 and 2013. They lacked the receiving threats to open up the running lanes by threatening the back of the endzone. They loaded up on that this off-season. So, I see the Panthers coming up big in the red zone now.

 

The Panthers now have Benjamin, Olsen, Cotchery, Dickson, Williams, and Avant in the passing game on 3rd and short. They had Olsen and LaFell the past 2 seasons, and we know how many times LaFell dropped passes or better yet popped them up for the DBs to intercept it.

[RelaxImaPro]

That 1st down % is probably the most underrated part of Cam's game, and one that is rarely ever included in what he brings to the table as a QB since it isn't really a traditional stat.  It keeps drives alive that probably shouldn't have been kept alive.

 

Damn Cam has been shitting on the rest of the league in that category the past 3 years.

[CPantherKing]

That 1st down % is probably the most underrated part of Cam's game, and one that is rarely ever included in what he brings to the table as a QB since it isn't really a traditional stat.  It keeps drives alive that probably shouldn't have been kept alive.

 

Damn Cam has been shitting on the rest of the league in that category the past 3 years.

 

Yes he has. Dominated it since his rookie season.

 

Only one other person has led that stat for 3 seasons in a row. Mike Vick during his prime in the mid 2000s. No one has ever held that 4 seasons in a row.

 

I will put money on it that Cam does it again this season. They only other player that could take it from Cam is RG3 if his knee is up to it.

[BuffaloBills62]

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/player-rushing-first-down-percentage/2013/

Cam Newton has been #1 on 1st down percentage in the league the past 3 seasons.

Jonathan Stewart was #2 in 2011 and Mike Tolbert was #2 in 2013

Mike Tobert was over 44.4% in 2012, but he only had 54 carries.

5 of the top 6 for rushing first down percentage in the past 3 seasons of all rushers in 3 seasons.

I have no doubt the Panthers have what they need to get first downs and move the ball into the red zone while eating up the clock.

The Panthers issue has been red zone offense in 2012 and 2013. They lacked the receiving threats to open up the running lanes by threatening the back of the endzone. They loaded up on that this off-season. So, I see the Panthers coming up big in the red zone now.

The Panthers now have Benjamin, Olsen, Cotchery, Dickson, Williams, and Avant in the passing game on 3rd and short. They had Olsen and LaFell the past 2 seasons, and we know how many times LaFell dropped passes or better yet popped them up for the DBs to intercept it.

great research and time spent on this. Thanks, I appreciate it.

I guess its easy to overlook all of that when it never gets points on the board and that 0-3 attempt against sf still leaves a bitter taste.

[CRA]

great research and time spent on this. Thanks, I appreciate it.

I guess its easy to overlook all of that when it never gets points on the board and that 0-3 attempt against sf still leaves a bitter taste.

Carolina was 10th in pts per drive last year I believe.

You seem to confuse a team getting lots of offensive touches and producing larger overall stats means they are better on offense.....it happens to many

[fjblair]

Well if the OL is problem with the run game, the OL will become the problem in the passing game. I just don't think it is all OL with the run issues the past couple of years.

[tailg8or]

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/player-rushing-first-down-percentage/2013/

 

Cam Newton has been #1 on 1st down percentage in the league the past 3 seasons.

 

Jonathan Stewart was #2 in 2011 and Mike Tolbert was #2 in 2013

 

Mike Tobert was over 44.4% in 2012, but he only had 54 carries.

 

5 of the top 6 for rushing first down percentage in the past 3 seasons of all rushers in 3 seasons.

 

I have no doubt the Panthers have what they need to get first downs and move the ball into the red zone while eating up the clock.

 

The Panthers issue has been red zone offense in 2012 and 2013. They lacked the receiving threats to open up the running lanes by threatening the back of the endzone. They loaded up on that this off-season. So, I see the Panthers coming up big in the red zone now.

 

The Panthers now have Benjamin, Olsen, Cotchery, Dickson, Williams, and Avant in the passing game on 3rd and short. They had Olsen and LaFell the past 2 seasons, and we know how many times LaFell dropped passes or better yet popped them up for the DBs to intercept it.

 

The above included an all-pro left tackle and veteran OG.  Currently, we have two UDFAs for bookends and a rookie OG.  Not quite the same.

 

The majority of Newton's first downs weren't designed runs.  All that stat tells me is he probably got flushed from the pocket and scrambled for first downs.  Actually more a negative than a positive.  It's great that we have that weapon, but Shula doesn't design runs for Cam very often and as stated, wants him to carry the ball less this year. 

 

Tolbert gets the rock in almost every short yardage situation so his high percentage is not surprising.

 

Red zone is a problem but by far, not the only problem.  Shula will run the same offense as last year.  The current WRs are better suited to his scheme so, despite losing our best WR, the current WR corps (as a whole) is better than last year.  Cotchery and Avant > LaFell and Ginn in this system.  Granted, Shula did very little to leverage Ginn's speed. 

 

The problem is clearly with the OL and it is not good.  It was a big concern during the offseason and after preseason game 1, it still is.  Our 1st team OL got stuffed by the Bills' backups.   Yes, it is preseason but individual battles still matter.  Kalil is the only reliable starter and will have his hands full with the youngsters next to him.  Lets not forget that Shula's plays take notoriously long to develop.  Power runs usually include lineman pulling into holes and vertical, downfield passing takes time.  Ball control offense starts with controlling the line of scrimmage.

 

While there are plenty of questions / concerns regarding the starting OL, lets pray nobody gets hurt because our backups ... wait ... who are the backups?

[CPantherKing]

great research and time spent on this. Thanks, I appreciate it.

I guess its easy to overlook all of that when it never gets points on the board and that 0-3 attempt against sf still leaves a bitter taste.

 

Yeah I know what you mean. Bothered me too. So, I studied that.

 

Check the guards out. They ran behind Chris Scott. He had no movement. He just falls to the ground and touches no one. All he has to do is launch himself into Willis and Cam scores. Trai Turner fixes this no question. Cam had no chance at a push. He had to go over Scott and through Willis with no drive because Scott flopped on the ground. You can see Scott's helmet as he slides on the ground.

 

 

Also, watch the 49ers defense. They show absolutely no respect for a pass to to the back of the end zone or some corner fades.

 

Cam Newton QB draw on 2nd and Goal with 0:55 in the 1st quarter. Stopped at 1. Who is the first to contact Cam? Chris Scott who has no push and slows Cam down.

 

On the next play at the 1 Tolbert takes the hand off and goes to launch himself into the air. He is undercut and has no push off. Who contacted Tolbert first and took his legs out? Chris Scott as he falls to the ground.

 

The 4th down play that follows is above.

 

So, who was the impact player at the goal line? Chris Scott. He was dominated and played horribly. He was more of an obstacle than he was a blocker.

 

Next goal line series. 1st and Goal with 6:35 in the 2nd quarter. Cam keeps it sweeping left. Cam launches himself at the 4 yard line, but he is undercut. Care to guess by who? You guessed it Chris Scott. Scott lumbers down the field touching no one. He is slow and gets in Newton's path. Scott stops in Newton's path and begins to cut block toward a defender, but before he can touch the defender he impedes Cam's momentum as he cuts Cam Newton.

 

On 2nd and Goal, Cam keeps it again scrambling to the right. Ben Hartsock does a horrible job of blocking, and lets Brooks go by easily to swipe Cam's legs stopping Cam at the 1 yard line.

 

3rd and Goal at the 1. Tolbert carries. Who is the first one to hit Tolbert? Not a Niner. This time it is the other guard Travelle Wharton who pulls and stumbles into Tolbert in the backfield. To make things worse Brooks comes in unblocked. The DE pushes down on Scott who was suppose to get Brooks and buries Scott. Meanwhile, Byron Bell pushes the DE who is burying Scott into Scott when Bell should have read the DE and slid off to Brooks, Instead Bell ends up on top of Scott and Brooks runs in to finish off Tolbert who was first contacted by Travelle Wharton.

 

First contact on all but one of these was with our own offensive guards not the defenders. You cannot have that at the goal line. The guards need to be quick on their feet and on a defender quickly driving them back into other defenders. You cut block them once you are at the goal line - not before you are at the goal line.

 

Was it Cam and Tolbert? No. It was Chris Scott and Travelle Wharton as the major offenders. Hartsock and Bell just made bad calls during the play with their blocks. Chris Scott was the 49ers most valuable defender.

 

So, needless to say I am happy to see Silatolu and Turner moving faster and mauling defenders.

[PanthersAlv]

We have to remember that the 2011 season when our run game was last productive (ranked 3rd) was when we had the 2 tight end sets, and a top ranked Oline (9th per Pro Football Focus). And that was Cam's rookie season. (as previously mentioned) so the Run game was a staple.
 

We also have to remember that DWill and JStew were both healthy at that time. (something we haven't had the luxury of since then)

 

When the run game declined we had only Dwill, no TE set that was really productive after we lost Shockey... an Oline ranked 26th (again from Pro Football Focus) and no Kalil.

2013 according to PFF again, we had the 7th ranked Oline (and we complained about how horrid they were)
 

Moving into 2014, and we know it's still to be proven... but it looks like (for now) we may have both RB's healthy for the first time since 2011. Add in Tolbert... getting the 2 TE sets back, AND tall, ball catching WR's & TE's across the board, and there's only the Oline to be concerned about. (which we are)

 

We will see how well the Oline is soon enough.

If the line can be serviceable as we all feel it may just be (and we get some depth "just in case") We may be on to something.

Just my opinion.

[rmoneyg35]

I see how people are saying that our run game sucks because we have no pass game and defenses stack men in the box on us. To that I say what about the years when double trouble dominated?

Really and truly we haven't had a good receiving threat beside Steve Smith in fact we have always had average passing but have had decent if not great numbers from double trouble up until last year.

Now I could say its age or health but I believe it's our line or scheme. I am looking forward to us using two tight end sets, if our receivers can be a threat in the pass game then it should obviously open up the ground game.

Also I am looking forward to Brandon Williams laying someone out on a block. He and Tolbert are probably the most intimidating guys on offense and offer a toughness against opponents as well.

I hope Shula has thought about using some 3 TE sets as well because we have the talent and players to be successful at it.

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[tailg8or]

Yeah I know what you mean. Bothered me too. So, I studied that.

 

Check the guards out. They ran behind Chris Scott. He had no movement. He just falls to the ground and touches no one. All he has to do is launch himself into Willis and Cam scores. Trai Turner fixes this no question. Cam had no chance at a push. He had to go over Scott and through Willis with no drive because Scott flopped on the ground. You can see Scott's helmet as he slides on the ground.

 

 

Also, watch the 49ers defense. They show absolutely no respect for a pass to to the back of the end zone or some corner fades.

 

Cam Newton QB draw on 2nd and Goal with 0:55 in the 1st quarter. Stopped at 1. Who is the first to contact Cam? Chris Scott who has no push and slows Cam down.

 

On the next play at the 1 Tolbert takes the hand off and goes to launch himself into the air. He is undercut and has no push off. Who contacted Tolbert first and took his legs out? Chris Scott as he falls to the ground.

 

The 4th down play that follows is above.

 

So, who was the impact player at the goal line? Chris Scott. He was dominated and played horribly. He was more of an obstacle than he was a blocker.

 

  Did Scott get credited with any tackles during that game?  LOL

 

Ironically, it looks like Wharton was moving his defender.

[rayzor]

Carolina was 10th in pts per drive last year I believe.

You seem to confuse a team getting lots of offensive touches and producing larger overall stats means they are better on offense.....it happens to many

yeah, i think he's basing a whole lot on overall yardage and points without knowledge of the system and philosophy of game management and looking at the stats that tell the more accurate picture of what we're doing and it's effectiveness. he came in feeling like he was knowledgable about the team, but he's been looking at the wrong information and working under wrong assumptions.

that's what happens, though, when you haven't spent a lot of time studying a team's behaviors and philosophies. when you analyze that team, you're likely going to get a lot of things wrong. i would do the same thing to most teams. those that we face regularly within our division, i feel pretty comfortable in my assessing of them, but when it comes to teams that are out of conference...any assumptions i make are largely misinformed and if i went in acting like i knew my poo, i'd probably be making an ass of myself.

it's tempting to come into forums trying to sound like i have a solid grasp on things and feel the need to correct some homer views of their team, but the best thing to do is to come in with a desire to be educated rather than educate.

[Kick]

A simple solution is to get the OL to move bodies out the path of the backs.  If the play continues to run up the middle and face a wall of opponents, we will continue to miss downs.  Yes, I want the QB protected, but, let's get energized about the running game.