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Greg Olsen Tweet....


Jeremy Igo

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Lovie didn't really 'fire' Rivera. He just didn't keep him.

His original choice for DC was Bob Babich, but Bears management wanted Rivera (former Bear, 85 team member, etc) so Lovie caved. But when Rivera's original contract ended, Lovie didn't renew it and instead installed the guy he'd wanted in the first place. Rivera moved on to San Diego.

Both men say "no hard feelings" when asked, but I've never really bought it. I honestly don't think they like each other much. Whether it's because of that situation, other things that happened when they worked together or just clashing personalities, who can say?

Mind you, Rivera seems to have no issues with Bob Babich. His son spent a couple of years working here as a defensive assistant (he moved on to Cleveland when Chudzinski took over there).

Would love to see a Lovie vs Rivera fight. Ever saw those Discovery Channel videos of a lion vs antelope?

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No sh*t I know it's by design. My whole point is that its an unsustainable design.

 

You aren't taking into account the type of playcalling was far more vertical in SD. You don't need a lot of plays when Philly Rivers completes multiple 25 yard pass plays every drive. I also contend to say that the PLAYCALLING was better in both San Fran and Seattle - specifically Seattle where they were more balanced in their pass plays of over 15 yards. That's all I was talking about - you do realize that, right? The playcalling.

 

I do, however, stand firm that a ball control offense and lack of vertical plays does keep a team down, not allowing them to step on the throat of a good opponent which quite frankly is something we were unable to do. You need balance. We call plays like a team that is playing not to lose. What's good is that we didn't lose often, but that doesn't take away from the fact that our offense is UNSUSTAINABLE.

 

I disagree strongly with you when you say that we "never put the D in bad situations." Do you realize how often our defense was on the field? You're just underestimating how damn good they were. They were CONSTANTLY in bad situations. They were just so good that they made it look easy. If the D wasn't so stout you would be harping a WAY different tune.

 

Also, Cam's 13 picks is one away from being tied for 10th in the league, and I'm not saying that to bash Cam obviously - but what I am saying is that we didn't substantially lower turnovers in the passing game...we did substantially lower our pass ranking. Just because he didn't give up touchdowns with those picks shouldn't have a bearing in my opinion on playcalling with your tail between your legs.

 

We won games, but it wasn't because of the ball control offense. I'm sorry, but it just wasn't. It was because of our defense and the 2 minute drill.

 

I'm amused that you find offenses that helped get us to 12-4 records unsustainable. We lost to Arizona in the playoffs because Jake threw 50 picks. We lost to SF for multiple reasons, failure to execute at the goal line, the D being overhyped giving away silly penalties, helping the enemy sustain drives and basically capitulating right at the end of the first half. The #2 ranked D disappeared in the second half altogether.

 

If its Shula's play calling you have issues with say so, but that isn't what you said. You mentioned their lack of plays and drives and I provided evidence of a team having even less but also executing and excelling. SD were also a very good running team and actually led the league in TOP per drive, so while Rivers made big plays and their passing game was certainly more effective than ours they still remained balanced. That we can agree on, I'm all about balance. The Panthers were also ranked 3rd in plays per drive, SD were 1st.

 

The D was also not "constantly" in bad situations. The only bad situation I can think of off the top of my head was the Giants game where we threw a pick in our own 20 and held them to a missed FG after a TD was called back. The D ranked 4th in the league in starting position per drive so no, the stats suggest the O and Special teams did a good job of avoiding putting them in a bad position. Then of course you have the O's TOP stats that clearly also limited the time they spent out there. The O was ranked 2nd in TOP per drive, the D was ranked 16th. Plus, I didn't say "never" either, I said very rarely and I stand by that. I'm sure there are others, the SF pick sticks out at midfield but I could have sworn I saw holding on that play.

 

I'd be shocked to see a radically different approach in 2014. Cotchery and Avant are possession receivers and Benjamin is more of a red zone threat than a burner. We're not exactly built to be launching it down the field, I expect more steady eddie I'm afraid. The only legitimate speed guy is a WR Tampa let walk.

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I'm amused that you find offenses that helped get us to 12-4 records unsustainable. We lost to Arizona in the playoffs because Jake threw 50 picks. We lost to SF for multiple reasons, failure to execute at the goal line, the D being overhyped giving away silly penalties, helping the enemy sustain drives and basically capitulating right at the end of the first half. The #2 ranked D disappeared in the second half altogether.

 

If its Shula's play calling you have issues with say so, but that isn't what you said. You mentioned their lack of plays and drives and I provided evidence of a team having even less but also executing and excelling. SD were also a very good running team and actually led the league in TOP per drive, so while Rivers made big plays and their passing game was certainly more effective than ours they still remained balanced. That we can agree on, I'm all about balance. The Panthers were also ranked 3rd in plays per drive, SD were 1st.

 

The D was also not "constantly" in bad situations. The only bad situation I can think of off the top of my head was the Giants game where we threw a pick in our own 20 and held them to a missed FG after a TD was called back. The D ranked 4th in the league in starting position per drive so no, the stats suggest the O and Special teams did a good job of avoiding putting them in a bad position. Then of course you have the O's TOP stats that clearly also limited the time they spent out there. The O was ranked 2nd in TOP per drive, the D was ranked 16th. Plus, I didn't say "never" either, I said very rarely and I stand by that. I'm sure there are others, the SF pick sticks out at midfield but I could have sworn I saw holding on that play.

 

I'd be shocked to see a radically different approach in 2014. Cotchery and Avant are possession receivers and Benjamin is more of a red zone threat than a burner. We're not exactly built to be launching it down the field, I expect more steady eddie I'm afraid. The only legitimate speed guy is a WR Tampa let walk.

 

My original post:

 

 

If the playcalling doesn't improve though, folks...we're f*cked. After the scripted first drives, Shula's situational and red zone play calling last season was a monstrosity.

I have issues with our lack of down the field passing. That's what I've said constantly throughout the thread. That's my problem. Our problem is the lack of effective playcalling in the passing game, but also AND especially in the red zone. The only situation that Shula has succeeded in is the 2 minute drill, which is admirable. We're saying very similar things, but you didn't see my original post that got us to the point where you started the conversation with me.

 

I say that our offense is unsustainable in a different sense than SUSTAINING drives in specific games. I mean unsustainable in a broader sense, I don't think that it's an offense that can get us to the NFC Championship.

 

This isn't due to talent, it's due to the fact that although defense and not turning over the ball does win championships, you have to make plays down the field and score touchdowns in the red zone against good teams. The most glaring and angering example of that is against New Orleans in the Superdome on Sunday Night. Also, Seattle is a ball control offense, but they won a championship because they were consistently able to throw the ball down the field when they needed to, especially out of play action. It wasn't their go to, but they could and did do it. San Francisco can't get out of the conference playoffs because Kaepernick and previously Alex Smith couldn't deliver the ball 25 yards down the middle and on a streak down the sideline efficiently. Cam can, and those are things that we did not do even though I think we are more than able to do. Our offense needs to vary in that sense.

 

My words were misconstrued to you because you caught a post that I was directing at someone else. I didn't want to go into time of possession or plays per drive because I never said those were our problems. Our problems, in my opinion, are playcalling in the passing game, but also playcalling and execution in the red zone.

 

I really don't think we disagree very much, but I will reiterate that I don't think our offensive scheme won us the majority of those 12 games. I think that our defense and our 2 minute drill offense and of course the D won us 12 games.

 

EDIT: This post is way too long, but I also want to address 2 other things. First, when I say "we put our defense in bad positions", I'm referencing the fact that WE don't score enough, and we consistently put the defense in a position of having to win a game 9-6, in other words, a single touchdown will lose us the game. It's a very tough position for them. Also, when I referenced the 08 season, I firmly believe that our offensive scheme was unsustainable and easy to defend from a passing standpoint, and we were playing - in the playoffs - a Kurt Warner led offensive juggernaut. Jake was forced to have to sling the ball around when our run game didn't work after that 1st drive and our playbook wasn't built that way. Jake couldn't sling it anymore. It wasn't sustainable.

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My original post:

I have issues with our lack of down the field passing. That's what I've said constantly throughout the thread. That's my problem. Our problem is the lack of effective playcalling in the passing game, but also AND especially in the red zone. The only situation that Shula has succeeded in is the 2 minute drill, which is admirable. We're saying very similar things, but you didn't see my original post that got us to the point where you started the conversation with me.

I say that our offense is unsustainable in a different sense than SUSTAINING drives in specific games. I mean unsustainable in a broader sense, I don't think that it's an offense that can get us to the NFC Championship.

This isn't due to talent, it's due to the fact that although defense and not turning over the ball does win championships, you have to make plays down the field and score touchdowns in the red zone against good teams. The most glaring and angering example of that is against New Orleans in the Superdome on Sunday Night. Also, Seattle is a ball control offense, but they won a championship because they were consistently able to throw the ball down the field when they needed to, especially out of play action. It wasn't their go to, but they could and did do it. San Francisco can't get out of the conference playoffs because Kaepernick and previously Alex Smith couldn't deliver the ball 25 yards down the middle and on a streak down the sideline efficiently. Cam can, and those are things that we did not do even though I think we are more than able to do. Our offense needs to vary in that sense.

My words were misconstrued to you because you caught a post that I was directing at someone else. I didn't want to go into time of possession or plays per drive because I never said those were our problems. Our problems, in my opinion, are playcalling in the passing game, but also playcalling and execution in the red zone.

I really don't think we disagree very much, but I will reiterate that I don't think our offensive scheme won us the majority of those 12 games. I think that our defense and our 2 minute drill offense and of course the D won us 12 games.

EDIT: This post is way too long, but I also want to address 2 other things. First, when I say "we put our defense in bad positions", I'm referencing the fact that WE don't score enough, and we consistently put the defense in a position of having to win a game 9-6, in other words, a single touchdown will lose us the game. It's a very tough position for them. Also, when I referenced the 08 season, I firmly believe that our offensive scheme was unsustainable and easy to defend from a passing standpoint, and we were playing - in the playoffs - a Kurt Warner led offensive juggernaut. Jake was forced to have to sling the ball around when our run game didn't work after that 1st drive and our playbook wasn't built that way. Jake couldn't sling it anymore. It wasn't sustainable.

Your back and forth has remained respecful enough and both of you make good points. i enjoyed reading your back and forth and it was informative. Thank you both

Sent from my iPad using CarolinaHuddle

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My original post:

 

I have issues with our lack of down the field passing. That's what I've said constantly throughout the thread. That's my problem. Our problem is the lack of effective playcalling in the passing game, but also AND especially in the red zone. The only situation that Shula has succeeded in is the 2 minute drill, which is admirable. We're saying very similar things, but you didn't see my original post that got us to the point where you started the conversation with me.

 

I say that our offense is unsustainable in a different sense than SUSTAINING drives in specific games. I mean unsustainable in a broader sense, I don't think that it's an offense that can get us to the NFC Championship.

 

This isn't due to talent, it's due to the fact that although defense and not turning over the ball does win championships, you have to make plays down the field and score touchdowns in the red zone against good teams. The most glaring and angering example of that is against New Orleans in the Superdome on Sunday Night. Also, Seattle is a ball control offense, but they won a championship because they were consistently able to throw the ball down the field when they needed to, especially out of play action. It wasn't their go to, but they could and did do it. San Francisco can't get out of the conference playoffs because Kaepernick and previously Alex Smith couldn't deliver the ball 25 yards down the middle and on a streak down the sideline efficiently. Cam can, and those are things that we did not do even though I think we are more than able to do. Our offense needs to vary in that sense.

 

My words were misconstrued to you because you caught a post that I was directing at someone else. I didn't want to go into time of possession or plays per drive because I never said those were our problems. Our problems, in my opinion, are playcalling in the passing game, but also playcalling and execution in the red zone.

 

I really don't think we disagree very much, but I will reiterate that I don't think our offensive scheme won us the majority of those 12 games. I think that our defense and our 2 minute drill offense and of course the D won us 12 games.

 

EDIT: This post is way too long, but I also want to address 2 other things. First, when I say "we put our defense in bad positions", I'm referencing the fact that WE don't score enough, and we consistently put the defense in a position of having to win a game 9-6, in other words, a single touchdown will lose us the game. It's a very tough position for them. Also, when I referenced the 08 season, I firmly believe that our offensive scheme was unsustainable and easy to defend from a passing standpoint, and we were playing - in the playoffs - a Kurt Warner led offensive juggernaut. Jake was forced to have to sling the ball around when our run game didn't work after that 1st drive and our playbook wasn't built that way. Jake couldn't sling it anymore. It wasn't sustainable.

 

Fair enough, I jumped in after seeing your first post. However I still disagree with your assessment of Shula's situational and red zone play calling. The stats suggest otherwise. I think its just the manner of having played NO and SF late in the season that exaggerates the feeling of sucking. I don't think its fair to just give Shula credit for Cams game winning drives when he improved in so many other areas too, notably 3rd and longs. The O deserves credit for winning games too, most NFL games are actually pretty close. I think we had just as many 30 point games and close games as Seattle did. We CAN win a championship with this offense. Just show up next time and don't go all Rick Flair.

 

I'm all about improving the passing game too. I was all about Jeffrey, Allen and Benjamin or Lee in the last 3 drafts so I see the need for improving that area. I just don't think we have the horses yet to be expecting major changes just yet. Also Keep in mind Chuds Browns were like the polar opposite to us, pass happy and where did it get him? The Lions are another pass happy team that need to focus on other parts of the team and what do they do, sign Tate and draft Ebron. The Eagles have both their O and D at both ends of the spectrum. Its about balance IMO and drafting someone like KB13 is a step in the right direction. We just need more IMO, were gonna have to baby step it next year. Just look at the young talent surrounding the other young QB's in the league.

 

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See now you're getting into an entirely different issue. Has no bearing on what I said, which was that playcalling by Mike Shula needs to improve. We had worse receiving corps the previous 2 years and put up better passing numbers.

NOW I'm not saying that Chud was necessarily leaps and bounds better than Shula overall in the playcalling dept. but I will say that both of their stratagies put together (which many teams - most notably Seattle - do today) would give us what we want. Potent offense that scores points and a great defense.

Also are you Canadian, eh?

Playcalling can't improve without talent.

Our OL can barely run or pass block.....Shula can't turn water into win. Simple and safe is his only option.

Simple and safe is also be designed what you play with great defense.

No one credits Shula's O for helping our D be as great as it was. He deserves it

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Play calling and execution can always be improved on IMO. The thing about play calling though is it's success can largely be dependent on what the D calls.

 

Shula is a conservative play caller, yet we went for it on 4th downs a lot. We failed on those attempts largely due to execution, not the play calling, see LaFells drop at Buffalo. Sometimes we just played great D, see Seattle, SF, Bills and Zona.

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I said it the other day & I'll say it again..

Between the Rivera-Lovie history, Cam still being overlooked & underrated, the entire team being disrespected & labeled a bust, etc...

This team is gonna wipe the field with Tampa Bay on opening day. I seriously believe they are gonna go to Tampa pissed off with not only the mindset of getting a win, but completely dismantling Tampa & sending a huge message.

 

I hope you are right.  There had to be bad blood.  I don't know the whole story but it had to be bad to leave as a DC and go to another team in the same position.

 

The defense needs to make a huge statement and not let McCown get comfortable with those big receivers.

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