Vince Young will be in the Hall of Fame

[Urrymonster]

KT, people are not scrutinising Young because of the colour of his skin, they scrutinise him because he is not a prototypical drop back passer, has questionable mechanics and his rate of improvement. Do they doubt his ability to play? Nope. They doubt that he will ever be more than 'just' a running threat. The other thing that will always haunt him, was his 'suicide' story and his inability to deal with an NFL lifestyle. Kudos to him to stick at it and try to prove people wrong, but that will always hang over him. For the record ANY QB who acted inthe way he did will have the same level of scrutiny, yes that includes white QBs.

Like you pointed out though, Vince is a winner. Just like Jake was. So if you give Vince a pass, then you give Jake a pass. You also give Collins a pass as he won a lot more than Vince did last year.

You need to be consistent as well in your criticism. Why is it that you praise Vince and hate Jake?

[thefuzz]

thefuzz why does it bother you to hear a black man being called a "saviour"? Tennesee played the Jags and Texans with Collins and lost both games. They got blown out BIG TIME against the Jags, so I dont know why you would even go to the "Vince has played an easier schedule" argument when Vince has already played 2 teams that Collins did and posted better stats and results. Remember, I didnt say Vince is an elite QB or the best in the league, I said he was a "saviour" of his franchise, and he is. Anyone who doesnt believe Phillip Rivers is the best QB in the league can see that. Did you ACTUALLY watch Collins play this year? How you are penciling him in wins for him is INSANE and so biased to me. This is a guy that lost 59-0 in his last start and wasnt completing 60% of his passes and had more picks than TDs. He could not get crucial 3rd downs and was a statue back there in pocket. How many wins would you pencil in for JaMarcus Russell if he remained starter of the Raiders, cuz thats about how good Kerry Collins was playing this year.

When a black QB plays like poo and sucks, no one has any problem heaping blame on them and giving them full credit for it (JaMarcus Russell, Vince this offseason, etc) but when he does well and is the obvious reason his team has turned their season around people will look for anything else to credit for it. "Oh the defense is playing better", "the training staff has the team in better conditioning", "their opponents arent that good". LMAO. Its so obvious some people are paranoid about black QBs being successful taking up potential roster spots from white boys. No other position on the football field do you get this unspoken fear when analyzing performance. When a black cornerback has a good game or black running back has a good game, its OK to acknowledge it. But a black QB we gotta exhaust all other possible scenarios before we shower them with praise. Its sad man.

AHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH....figured that would come out sooner than later.

You are filled with oppression syndrome.

Just ask Dimbee if I criticize "white" QB's.

Ask any Saints fan on here if I have criticized Brees.

Ask Fireball77 if I have bashed Brady and Manning.

And to answer your question, I have criticized Rivers, Big Ben, Vick, Palmer..etc. I enjoy vocalizing my opinion on the QB's. You just don't like it that I said something this week about your boy.....well sorry...it's not gonna stop, just because you called me a Black QB hater.

Grow up.

[King Taharqa]

KT, you can't have it both ways. You prop up Vick and Young because of their winning percentages and because of Vick's playoff wins several years ago, but have been calling Delhomme a cancer for years even though he's won 60% of his starts as a Panther and more playoff games then both of them combined.

I never called Jake Delhomme a cancer until directly after our win over Tampa this season. Thats a fact. This was while he was on his 2 INT a game pace he had earlier this year. I give Jake Delhomme full credit for the success he's had in the past with this franchise. You must not have seen me call Jake Delhomme one of the top 10 Panthers of all time in another thread this week X-Clown. If you had, youd know I have no problem giving Jake credit for his accomplishments. Id say thats more credit than you've ever been willing to concede to Vick. If Matt Ryan beat the Panthers 5 straight times, I think you wouldnt have a problem admitting that he might be good. But for whatever reason, you're convinced that Vick never did anything in this league. Where you might give Jake extra brownie points for being so marketable in a nascar region like ours and being "fiery" and feel we should overlook the fact he's the worst starting QB in the league, I dont. Just like I dont hate on Vick because of the "hip hop" image he had and the fact he didnt have to put up the gaudy passing stats white QBs do to get wins. I judge based on what they do on the field.

Then when you criticize Delhomme, you throw out stats, but claim that they are not as important when evaluating Vick and Young because they win and - yet Brees' stats aren't impressive because his team went 8-8. Which is it

Well what do you expect? As of November 27, 2009 Jake Delhomme is THE WORST STARTING QB IN THE LEAGUE. He has lost 6 games this season. When you win, you can get away with pedestrian stats. Problem for Shakey Jakey is he's not winning. Vince Young this year is putting up better stats and has won just as many games as Jake this year. Look at Vince's QB rating, its much higher than Delhommes. So Im giving Jake a pass for what reason again? You see in your mind, Vince & Jake are the same. Just because I acknowledge Vince has turned around his team this season doesnt mean I have to do the same for Jake, cuz Jake aint winning. You would have a point if I was in here talking bout Russell & Campbell, 2 black QBs who put up pedestrian stats and lose, but Im not.

As for Brees, I compared him to McNabb. Being they are 2 very good QBs I thought that was a fair comparison. My exact words, Drew Brees is not under the immediate pressure to win as Don McNabb. And he's not. When Drew Brees loses in January and doesnt make it to the Super Bowl, his legacy will remain intact. All he has to do is make sure his hair is properly brushed, put up his usual 20+ TDs every year and he's good. He will go down as one of the best of this era with no pressure to win a Super Bowl to "validate" his career. This is not the case for McNabb. Thats what I was getting at. The NFL culture tells black QBs they wont put them amongst the best unless they win a Super Bowl. Then it turns around tells Drew Brees just show up and put up stats, and we got you.

[dimbee]

This thread is nigh worthy of being in the Hall of Fame

[Kevin Greene]

As for Brees, I compared him to McNabb. Being they are 2 very good QBs I thought that was a fair comparison. My exact words, Drew Brees is not under the immediate pressure to win as Don McNabb. And he's not. When Drew Brees loses in January and doesnt make it to the Super Bowl, his legacy will remain intact. All he has to do is make sure his hair is properly brushed, put up his usual 20+ TDs every year and he's good. He will go down as one of the best of this era with no pressure to win a Super Bowl to "validate" his career. This is not the case for McNabb. Thats what I was getting at. The NFL culture tells black QBs they wont put them amongst the best unless they win a Super Bowl. Then it turns around tells Drew Brees just show up and put up stats, and we got you.

I agree but for different reasons, Brees legacy is nothing more than glossy numbers and one playoff win in his career against the Jeff Garcia lead Eagles.

In order for Brees to have any kind of legacy, he needs playoff wins, his regular season stats while impressive are meaningless when it counts. Brees and the Saints impress me not.

The reason San Diego let Brees go, Phillip Rivers, his 3 playoff wins in 4 years is impressive and the start of a fine legacy. So are his 40 regular season wins in 3 plus years as a starter.

[King Taharqa]

KT, people are not scrutinising Young because of the colour of his skin, they scrutinise him because he is not a prototypical drop back passer, has questionable mechanics and his rate of improvement. Do they doubt his ability to play? Nope. They doubt that he will ever be more than 'just' a running threat. The other thing that will always haunt him, was his 'suicide' story and his inability to deal with an NFL lifestyle. Kudos to him to stick at it and try to prove people wrong, but that will always hang over him. For the record ANY QB who acted inthe way he did will have the same level of scrutiny, yes that includes white QBs.

Chris Weinke was a prototypical drop back passer. He went 2-17 lifetime as a starter in the NFL. So basically even though Vince has been successful playing his way, even though he is on a current 4 game winning streak this season and has won his last 8 starts (only Manning & Brees have won more consecutive starts currently) he needs to play like Chris Weinke to prove to his critics he's a QB? When you win 22 out of 33 games as a starting QB in this league, you're more than just a "running threat". People saw no potential in Vince Young despite his early success simply because he's a black QB who can win games with his arm & legs.

[X-Clown]

I never called Jake Delhomme a cancer until directly after our win over Tampa this season. Thats a fact. This was while he was on his 2 INT a game pace he had earlier this year. I give Jake Delhomme full credit for the success he's had in the past with this franchise. You must not have seen me call Jake Delhomme one of the top 10 Panthers of all time in another thread this week X-Clown. If you had, youd know I have no problem giving Jake credit for his accomplishments.

No, I really had not ever seen you give the guy credit at all and certainly did not see that post. When he is the quarterback of a team that wins 12 games and makes the playoffs, I see a lot of posts about "What's his record without Smith?" And you aren't wrong for saying that, because as I pointed out before it's more than just a quarterback who wins and loses games..... but it is kind of odd that you bristle if anybody mentions that Tennessee's defense playing better and that they did have a tougher schedule earlier in the season instead of conceding that Vince is the sole reason for the turnaround.

Id say thats more credit than you've ever been willing to concede to Vick. If Matt Ryan beat the Panthers 5 straight times, I think you wouldnt have a problem admitting that he might be good. But for whatever reason, you're convinced that Vick never did anything in this league.

Early year Vick was a nightmare against us, I've never said he wasn't.

Where you might give Jake extra brownie points for being so marketable in a nascar region like ours and being "fiery" and feel we should overlook the fact he's the worst starting QB in the league, I dont. Just like I dont hate on Vick because of the "hip hop" image he had and the fact he didnt have to put up the gaudy passing stats white QBs do to get wins. I judge based on what they do on the field.

See, I knew you would go there with this. I have said since that awful Week One performance against Philly that I think Jake is done. I only bring him up because like I said, I couldn't recall you saying much of anything positive about our record under him at least since I've been reading your posts yet you are CONSTANTLY reminding people about Vick winning playoff games five years ago. The last we saw of Vick was his team getting off to a hot start in 2006 at 5-2 and then playing terribly down the stretch in embarassing home losses to awful Cleveland and Detroit teams, and a pretty bad one that year in Carolina with Chris Weinke under center. I'm not convinced that fresh off a long stint in prison and at 30 years old that he would still have the same speed and agility as his early years and if he would have a chance to improve his passing in our training camp to the point that he would be a viable option as our starting quarterback.

Well what do you expect? As of November 27, 2009 Jake Delhomme is THE WORST STARTING QB IN THE LEAGUE. He has lost 6 games this season. When you win, you can get away with pedestrian stats. Problem for Shakey Jakey is he's not winning. Vince Young this year is putting up better stats and has won just as many games as Jake this year. Look at Vince's QB rating, its much higher than Delhommes.

See above.

So Im giving Jake a pass for what reason again? You see in your mind, Vince & Jake are the same. Just because I acknowledge Vince has turned around his team this season doesnt mean I have to do the same for Jake, cuz Jake aint winning. You would have a point if I was in here talking bout Russell & Campbell, 2 black QBs who put up pedestrian stats and lose, but Im not.

No, this year Jake and Vince are not the same. They're not even in the same ballpark. As stated above, that's not where I was going.

FYI - Vince has done a great job regaining the form that he displayed in his rookie year. He proved that he is a better option than Collins at quarterback. I still think Collins was the better quarterback for that team last year due to Vince's behavior and off the field issues.

As for Brees, I compared him to McNabb. Being they are 2 very good QBs I thought that was a fair comparison. My exact words, Drew Brees is not under the immediate pressure to win as Don McNabb. And he's not. When Drew Brees loses in January and doesnt make it to the Super Bowl, his legacy will remain intact. All he has to do is make sure his hair is properly brushed, put up his usual 20+ TDs every year and he's good. He will go down as one of the best of this era with no pressure to win a Super Bowl to "validate" his career. This is not the case for McNabb. Thats what I was getting at. The NFL culture tells black QBs they wont put them amongst the best unless they win a Super Bowl. Then it turns around tells Drew Brees just show up and put up stats, and we got you.

I do think what you're saying has some validity, especially about McNabb being underappreciated....however, as a fan of a team from the NFC South you have to admit that location is a big deal in terms of how a quarterback is viewed. New Orleans, a small market team, right now is loving the fact that their football team is even relevant. They have won 2 playoff games in 40 years. So to them, they are thrilled to have a quarterback who gives their team a shot to win in any game. I do think you're right in the sense that his passing record attempt was fairly meaningless, given that he had an opportunity to throw so much because of playcalling (i.e. they didn't run the ball) yet because he had no defense but I can't really fault him for not making the playoffs last year because of it. I don't know of many quarterbacks that could have, including McNabb. But I've said all along that Brees at this point hasn't shown that he is a big game quarterback in the playoffs, and shouldn't be put in the air with Brady, Manning, Roethlisberger, or even Rivers level because he hasn't done much of anything in the playoffs. McNabb is getting more heat because they have been so close for many years but have never won it and Philly fans feel their window of opportunity is starting to close, if Brees has the same thing happen over the next few years, all bets are off.

In the same light, put Brees in Philly, New York, Dallas, or another major market hotbed for football and he isn't nearly as much of a hero. Look at Eli Manning - people were ready to run him out of town midway through their Super Bowl campaign....hell, after their playoff loss last year at home versus Philly I heard fans saying that Carr would have done a better job. The year after they won the Superbowl by beating a team that was 18-0 and people really think that David "Gloves" Carr could have done something better?? Chad Pennington was butchered in New York by Jets fans for years when he had won quite a few big games. Tony Romo, an undrafted quarterback is getting the rep of a choker because of his December and January record, but start him somewhere like Houston or Kansas City and he wouldn't get poo on nearly as much by the national media.

[dimbee]

I can't help wondering why I never saw any threads dedicated to Rex Grossman's "greatness" as he took the Bears to a 13-3 record amidst the onslaught of "Bad Rex" criticism?

I'd love to see how Vince could hold up in a major NFL market where everything is scrutinized. If he had his mental breakdown last year while quarterbacking a Chicago, New York or Dallas team, he'd have never made it back

[The Link]

The Man is trying to keep black QB's down! Up yours White Devil!

[King Taharqa]

The Man is trying to keep black QB's down! Up yours White Devil!

You never offer anything worthwhile to these threads. Always make your stupid lame off the cuff sarcastic remark. Tonight when you go to sleep dork, thank God that you were born a white man and you dont have black kids to raise or look after. Cuz if you did, maybe you'd understand why I engage the discussions I do and want the world to be a better place for them.

[King Taharqa]

I can't help wondering why I never saw any threads dedicated to Rex Grossman's "greatness" as he took the Bears to a 13-3 record amidst the onslaught of "Bad Rex" criticism?

Cuz Rex Grossman has never been "great". I didnt even call Vince Young "great" cuz he's not. I called him the "saviour" of his franchise and the fragile egos took offense to me giving a ***** QB the "golden boy" treatment.

I'd love to see how Vince could hold up in a major NFL market where everything is scrutinized. If he had his mental breakdown last year while quarterbacking a Chicago, New York or Dallas team, he'd have never made it back

You didnt even think he'd make it back in fuging Nashville.

[Mr. Scot]

Tonight when you go to sleep dork, thank God that you were born a white man and you dont have black kids to raise or look after. Cuz if you did, maybe you'd understand why I engage the discussions I do and want the world to be a better place for them.

Teaching them that all white people are inherently racist and will automatically try to hurt or oppress them should really set them up well for the future

[King Taharqa]

Teaching them that all white people are inherently racist and will automatically try to hurt or oppress them should really set them up well for the future

I dont teach them that. Some of the biggest opportunities Ive gotten in my life have come from white folks. But I will let them know there are whites out there who dont think black people can lead or do better than them in anything. There are whites out there who will tell their kids to be great and that they have infinite potential, then turn around and sell black kids short EVERYTIME because they dont believe in them like they do their own kids. And thats basically what you got here with this QB racket. No one believed in Vince. Even after the promising start to his career and taking his team to the playoffs, you see how easy it is for the football world to give up on a black QB after 1 bad half of football? Peyton Manning went 3-13 his rookie year and threw more INTs than TDs. Did people give up on him? Did they say "hey this guy doesnt have it lets go with his backup"? No! They were patient with him and said "hey we believe this guy is gonna turn it around, he's our guy!". Thats where we have to get with black QBs. I'll be happy when they get that "undying love" and "support" that a Delhomme gets for losing a Super Bowl, and Favre gets for winning 1 15 years ago.

Everything thats gone down with this scenario I predicted happening back in April and people laughed. Whats obvious is if I dont make threads praising McNabb and Vince, they dont get made. On the flipside when Vick does something bad or JaMarcus Russell is stinking it up, I trust we WILL hear about it. I dont trust Steve Young or Ron Jaworski or Merril Hodge to say anything positive abouut black QBs and if they do its half hearted. I do trust they're gonna blow Peyton Manning & Brees every chance they get and tell us how anything is possible when it comes to them.

[dimbee]

Cuz Rex Grossman has never been "great". I didnt even call Vince Young "great" cuz he's not. I called him the "saviour" of his franchise and the fragile egos took offense to me giving a ***** QB the "golden boy" treatment.

You didnt even think he'd make it back in fuging Nashville.

Well, he won't make it in Nashville either, if we're talking about the HOF.

As for Vince himself, I've already congratulated him on his play and success. He has definitely played his part. I like seeing a beat down player rise up and be successful. However, I'm not going to annoint any QB as anything after some good games, see Jay Cutler for my own bias. I know, I know, he's white.