Vince Young will be in the Hall of Fame

[PanthersFanNY]

I dont know why you mentioned all those coaches in your other post. Unless Skipper and the gang have the power to greenlight a black QB on our roster why even mention them in this discussion? It was never "the Panthers dont hire black people" hell despite what you believe it wasnt even "the Panthers are a racist organization". It was "the Panthers have never drafted or brought in a black QB with the intent of being their guy". It was "the Panthers are far behind their NFC South brethren when it comes to giving black QBs a chance to start and contribute on their team." It was "the Panthers will give a sorry white QB a chance before they'd give a good black one one".

So your point isn't that the Panthers are a racist organization, it's that they like white people more than black people.

Ohhh.

[King Taharqa]

So your point isn't that the Panthers are a racist organization, it's that they like white people more than black people.

Ohhh.

More like they need a white guy as their QB to sell their product to their fanbase. You bring in a black QB you're gonna alienate that conservative base of the Panthers that is probably the most loyal to them. Thats why when people were talking bout us bringing in Vick last summer I almost died laughing. Thats why whenever a potential black QB is suggested you get a million hell no's. Panthers & many of their fans just dont value what an athletic black QB could bring to the table. There's an aesthetic value QBs can have to a fanbase, and the Panthers have always been looking for their "Kurt Warner" so to speak to rally their fanbase with. It explains why they would stick with a guy like Jake for so long and tolerate him burning the house down so many times. They want a low profile white QB to be that guy who comes off someone's bench to become league MVP and lead them to the Super Bowl. Thats why they've brought in more free agent scrubs and backups then they have drafted guys. Theyre willing to go thru 100 bums just to find that 1 Kurt Warner. But the reality is, there's only 1 Kurt Warner. He's 1 hell of a QB and the Panthers will NEVER find someone as good as him rotting on someone's bench.

[Dingo_ate_Babies]

More like they need a white guy as their QB to sell their product to their fanbase. You bring in a black QB you're gonna alienate that conservative base of the Panthers that is probably the most loyal to them. Thats why when people were talking bout us bringing in Vick last summer I almost died laughing. Thats why whenever a potential black QB is suggested you get a million hell no's. Panthers & many of their fans just dont value what an athletic black QB could bring to the table. There's an aesthetic value QBs can have to a fanbase, and the Panthers have always been looking for their "Kurt Warner" so to speak to rally their fanbase with. It explains why they would stick with a guy like Jake for so long and tolerate him burning the house down so many times. They want a low profile white QB to be that guy who comes off someone's bench to become league MVP and lead them to the Super Bowl. Thats why they've brought in more free agent scrubs and backups then they have drafted guys. Theyre willing to go thru 100 bums just to find that 1 Kurt Warner. But the reality is, there's only 1 Kurt Warner. He's 1 hell of a QB and the Panthers will NEVER find someone as good as him rotting on someone's bench.

I agree with everything in bold.

[Kevin Greene]

By the way, Vince Young was awarded the Offensive player of the week in the AFC today.

Breesus was the NFC winner.

[Mr. Scot]

Translation: Dameyune Craig NEVER started for the Carolina Panthers, but saw mop up duty as a 3rd string QB. Randy Fasani DID get a start, and saw more action than Craig did in his 4 years here as a perennial practice squader. To put it in perspective, Randy Moss has just as many passing attempts as a WR in his career than Craig had in 4 years as a QB for the Carolina Panthers. What a joke.

4 of those games Craig played WR/HB hybrid and did not attempt a single pass. He was a poor man's "Slash" in 2000, anyone that was around back then would've remembered that. Lytle played in 3 games AS A QUARTERBACK, 1 more than Craig and actually STARTED a game, something Craig NEVER did in his 3-4 years in Carolina. And you accuse me of not having my facts straight? LOL. Try again Scotty.

So again Dameyune Craig, undrafted practice squader who hasnt suited up for Carolina in over 8 years is proof that the Panthers believe in black QBs? His 8 passes are a testament that they wanted him to be their guy and saw a future with him as a starter? As stated before, he played in 2 games as a QB which would put him behind McCown, behind Lewis, behind Reich. All of those guys were given more opportunities AS QUARTERBACKS than Craig.

And thats enough for you? So let me get this straight. The Panthers brought in a semi-retired 36 year old Rodney Peete, the Panthers drafted a black QB no one has ever heard of 15 years ago in the 6th round that did not make the final roster. And in your opinion in 15 years of football that is proof positive that the Panthers believe in black QBs just as much as they do white QBs and would have no problem annointing him as the "guy"? Why no mention of Rutherford? Oh yeah thats right, he never saw a minute of game time in 04, he was also an undrafted practice squad player.

I dont know why you mentioned all those coaches in your other post. Unless Skipper and the gang have the power to greenlight a black QB on our roster why even mention them in this discussion? It was never "the Panthers dont hire black people" hell despite what you believe it wasnt even "the Panthers are a racist organization". It was "the Panthers have never drafted or brought in a black QB with the intent of being their guy". It was "the Panthers are far behind their NFC South brethren when it comes to giving black QBs a chance to start and contribute on their team." It was "the Panthers will give a sorry white QB a chance before they'd give a good black one one".

All I can tell you is research HARDER next time and get your facts correct before you accuse someone else of the same.

Laughably predictable (Or is it predictably laughable? I guess it's both)

You said the Panthers never draft black QBs. You were proven wrong. And if you actually knew any Panthers history, you'd know that had the then-Houston Oilers opted for Kerry Collins (and there was a rumor they would) the Panthers first ever draft choice would have been Steve McNair.

You also suggested that the Panthers never give black QBs significant playing time. Wrong again, as the facts show that two black QBs in Panthers history have more playing time than a boatload of white guys, significantly more in the case of Peete.

Of course, Peete isn't a real black quarterback in your mind

And I mentioned the black coaches because they show that your suggestions about the organization's racial attitudes are ridiculous. And for the record, there's another guy not mentioned previously who has total control over the Panthers draft evaluation process. That'd be Don Gregory, shown here.

He's one of those racist people that won't ever give a black QB a chance

And here's the fun of it. You talk about "the Panthers organization" as if it were a constant. The only constant in the bunch is Jerry Richardson. The rest of the leadership positions (GM, head coach, chief scouts, player personnel people) have all been fluid in the history of the team. Heck, Marty Hurney's only been in his spot since 2002.

So unless you;re ready to accuse the Richardsons of being racist - a charge so laughable it would probably get you laughed to complete scorn - you don't really have a leg to stand on.

(but then you never did, and I already knew that)

[Mr. Scot]

More like they need a white guy as their QB to sell their product to their fanbase. You bring in a black QB you're gonna alienate that conservative base of the Panthers that is probably the most loyal to them. Thats why when people were talking bout us bringing in Vick last summer I almost died laughing. Thats why whenever a potential black QB is suggested you get a million hell no's.

I must have missed all the protests and fan defections when Rodney Peete was starting.

[Mr. Scot]

So your point isn't that the Panthers are a racist organization, it's that they like white people more than black people.

Ohhh.

Lemme see if I can help.

KT wants the Panthers to get Michael Vick. He practically worships Michael Vick. However, the Panthers don't want Michael Vick, for both character and performance reasons.

If Michael Vick were taller, had better character and could actually read defenses and pass well, the Panthers would be interested regardless of color. But he isn't, he doesn't and he can't, so nada.

KT can't wrap his mind around why the team doesn't want the guy he wants so bad, so he continually accuses the Panther organization of being racist even though he has no factual support whatsoever on which to base the charge. It's the only reason the race-based filters in his mind can process. It just happens to be false.

And hence, here we are.

(hope that helped)

[King Taharqa]

Scotty I post facts, you post Panthers personnel. I post truth, you post misleading info that I clearly had to rehash for you was not the case. And Scotty, how could you say that I wanted Vick? Im hurt deeply. C'mon Scotty, we all know who I King Taharqa wanted. I wanted Pat White, you know the guy from your alma mater that you didnt even believe in as a Panther. Yeah him. So now, I'll ask 3 questions of you that you can even ask of Gregory, the Richardsons, Marty Hurney, or whomever has been doing such a lousy job evaluating QBs and making personnel decisions for the Panthers and we can shift this topic back to who truly deserves it. The newest SUPERSTAR QB in the NFL, Vincent Paul Young Jr. on you scary doubters and non believers!!!

My 3 questions to you or whomever associated with the Panthers.

1. What impressed the Panthers about Stefan Lefors to invest a 4th round pick on him in 2005?

2. Why do they think in recent years so many defensive teams (Pittsburgh, Washington, Miami, Tennessee, Minnesota, Tampa, Jax, etc) have invested so many draft picks in YOUNG ATHLETIC BLACK QUARTERBACKS as starters and backups? And why have the Panthers resisted this trend?

3. What young black QBs in the college ranks CURRENTLY are the Panthers scouting or do they see as potential players who could help this team.

[tarheelpride]

Amazing where stuff heads in this forum when race is inserted into anything. I'm going to say this once and hopefully it'll be clear (and this is coming from a black person): RACE PLAYS A PART ONLY IF SOMEONE EITHER USE IT AS A CRUTCH OR AS SOMETHING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF A SITUATION. Using it as a crutch for excuses (I can't get a job because I'm black, the white man holding him down) or using it to hold an advantage (I'm black. Hire me because it'll look good. "meeting a quota") only degrades society and conscious thought. It's a light switch in a lit room. Once you flip the lights off, you see everything differently and it affects your judgment. In this case, race plays a part on the QB position in a league becoming increasingly populated with many blacks, but not many black QB's. Is it a lack of trying? We'll never know. But to place race as clearly the blame in this matter is ignoring the fact that there are other factors into play, factors one may be blind to (be it ability, someone more qualified to fill the position, or lack of talent present). Until we know EVERYTHING, i suggest you, KT, stick to the original message, promoting Vince Young, FOR THE PLAYER HE IS, NOT FOR THE COLOR OF HIS SKIN AT A GLAMOR POSITION, nor promoting a "problem" with the lack of black QB's.

[King Taharqa]

Amazing where stuff heads in this forum when race is inserted into anything. I'm going to say this once and hopefully it'll be clear (and this is coming from a black person): RACE PLAYS A PART ONLY IF SOMEONE EITHER USE IT AS A CRUTCH OR AS SOMETHING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF A SITUATION. Using it as a crutch for excuses (I can't get a job because I'm black, the white man holding him down) or using it to hold an advantage (I'm black. Hire me because it'll look good. "meeting a quota") only degrades society and conscious thought. It's a light switch in a lit room. Once you flip the lights off, you see everything differently and it affects your judgment. In this case, race plays a part on the QB position in a league becoming increasingly populated with many blacks, but not many black QB's. Is it a lack of trying? We'll never know. But to place race as clearly the blame in this matter is ignoring the fact that there are other factors into play, factors one may be blind to (be it ability, someone more qualified to fill the position, or lack of talent present). Until we know EVERYTHING, i suggest you, KT, stick to the original message, promoting Vince Young, FOR THE PLAYER HE IS, NOT FOR THE COLOR OF HIS SKIN AT A GLAMOR POSITION, nor promoting a "problem" with the lack of black QB's.

Funny you say all of this in a thread that started with a Vince Young quote:

"I don't know when I'll start again," he said to the magazine. "But I will be the next black quarterback to win a Super Bowl. And I will be in the Hall of Fame."

Seems Vince understands fully well who he is and what he represents. I think its beautiful Vince is proud of his heritage and wants to be a part of the rather new legacy of black quarterbacks who have made big contributions to the NFL. Its no different than Mark Sanchez, a mexican american player being proud of his heritage and what he represents to his community (in LA and the latin american one he plays in). I ask of you the same 3 questions I posed in the post prior to yours tarheelpride.

[tarheelpride]

My 3 questions to you or whomever associated with the Panthers.

1. What impressed the Panthers about Stefan Lefors to invest a 4th round pick on him in 2005?

2. Why do they think in recent years so many defensive teams (Pittsburgh, Washington, Miami, Tennessee, Minnesota, Tampa, Jax, etc) have invested so many draft picks in YOUNG ATHLETIC BLACK QUARTERBACKS as starters and backups? And why have the Panthers resisted this trend?

3. What young black QBs in the college ranks CURRENTLY are the Panthers scouting or do they see as potential players who could help this team.

1) No idea. Ask the Scouting Department. Could've been for depth.

2) Those QB's perhaps fit their system and their skillset matched what they was looking for. Apparently, Fox hitched his wagon behind Delhomme since 2003. The head coach thinking we're set at QB + the GM eing sold on that idea = Carolina not looking for a QB. That simple. We wasn't looking for a QB.

3) Honestly, I don't follow the college game that well, outside of UNC football and the BCS mess. So, I don't know of any. Doesn't mean there isn't a McNair or Warren Moon or Randall Cunningham out there. There very well could be, but I don't know of any.

[tarheelpride]

Funny you say all of this in a thread that started with a Vince Young quote:

Seems Vince understands fully well who he is and what he represents. I think its beautiful Vince is proud of his heritage and wants to be a part of the rather new legacy of black quarterbacks who have made big contributions to the NFL. Its no different than Mark Sanchez, a mexican american player being proud of his heritage and what he represents to his community (in LA and the latin american one he plays in). I ask of you the same 3 questions I posed in the post prior to yours tarheelpride.

I understand the quotation and its significance. However, inserting race into it was a bit unnecessary. That meant people will tend to get overemotional and slap labels on him as a QB. All I'm saying is erase the labels, erase race out of the equation, and go from there.

I'm not against him displaying his heritage or Sanchez displaying his for that matter, and I think its wonderful. My problem comes in when people use race and heritage to create issues that isn't there or that are in balance currently. Look at NAACP for some examples, this thread, and others. Mention race, someone takes offense, and it gets blown out of proportion and the original argument is lost because of one word: RACE. That's my whole problem.

[Mr. Scot]

1) No idea. Ask the Scouting Department. Could've been for depth.

2) Those QB's perhaps fit their system and their skillset matched what they was looking for. Apparently, Fox hitched his wagon behind Delhomme since 2003. The head coach thinking we're set at QB + the GM eing sold on that idea = Carolina not looking for a QB. That simple. We wasn't looking for a QB.

3) Honestly, I don't follow the college game that well, outside of UNC football and the BCS mess. So, I don't know of any. Doesn't mean there isn't a McNair or Warren Moon or Randall Cunningham out there. There very well could be, but I don't know of any.

Actually pretty good answers. I'll add a bit.

1) They had a spot open for a developmental guy and he was on the draft board. By the time it gets to day two, it's generally that simple (that's how Brady got drafted). Worth remembering that LeFors had his own story of adversity, having been raised by deaf parents.

2) Fox and Hurney haven't seen a need for a starting QB in a while. And with the acquisitions of Moore (developmental) and McCown (veteran backup) they felt like they were set. Hence, the pass on Pat White. Unfortunately they went one year too long on Jake. It happens to a lot of teams (sucks when it's the one you cheer for).

3) I can tell you exactly what they'd say. The scouting department will look to anyone, regardless of color, that they think can help. If KT really thinks they only scout white guys - especially given that the chief of scouting is black - he's delusional. Just as delusional if you think the scouting department would give any specifics.

Again, the notion that this team would pass on a QB because he's black is ridiculous to the point of stupidity. If they pass on anybody, at any position, it's because they feel the person they took was better.

Are they always right? No, no one is, including the Pats and Steelers.

But do they do it with integrity? I have no doubt of that much. To do otherwise would likely as not cost them their jobs.

Bottom Line: Accusing Jerry Richardson and/or the people he trusts to run the team of racist practices is ridiculously dumb, and anyone with more than half a brain knows it.

[Vagrant]

Race in this country will always be an issue until people like King Taharqa achieve the enlightenment they so desperately need and stop viewing people in colors, but instead viewing them as fellow human beings. THAT is your contribution to racism. Reverse discrimination serves just as much to divide our country as does plain old discrimination, but you don't understand that.

Our quarterback is not a black. Our quarterback is not a white. Our quarterback is the human being that takes snaps behind those other large five human beings. I am equally proud of them all, because I am a fan of the Carolina Panthers.... not a fan of white people.

And just to satisfy the ridiculousness of this discussion, the Carolina Panthers had 7 picks last year and none of them were white. Carolina hasn't drafted a white player in the first two rounds since they drafted Jordan Gross in 2003. 12 total picks in that span in the first two rounds and they were all black.

That screams racism.