How do some teams exploit the cap?/

[CarolinaSamurai]

Yes and no.

It really all comes down to value and the specific structuring of the contracts. For instance, if JStu and Williams were each still hitting 1k rushing yards a year I don't think we'd be throwing a fit (or at least as much) about their contracts. Granted the majority of their ineffectiveness is due to injuries and poor line play. If Williams and Stu were tearing it up on the ground we'd have a nice pair of runners to take pressure off Cam and wouldn't feel as great of a need for receivers.

What has really crippled us in particular with the Hurney contracts isn't so much the money itself as it is the inability to gain leverage over players. Way too much guaranteed money on the back end gives you no other choice than to just let the player stay on the team and eat at the cap. Football is such a volatile and dynamic sport that it is pretty darn difficult to predict a player's place on your team in 3+ years. The rules, way the game is played and level of competition change rapidly and injuries happen.

I don't know why your bringing Mr Richardson's "cheapness" into this considering we are pretty darn close to the cap limit every year. The salary cap actually does exist in the NFL, it is enforced, and we aren't the only team who can't sign a player due to cap constraints or has to let players walk due to said constraints.

History generally supports the notion that signing superstar free agents to superstar contracts usually leads to a let down and will limit your ability to have a deep roster. Dynasties and consistent winners tend to not go crazy in free agency and build through the draft. I'd like the Panthers to be a dynasty, therefore I believe we should aim for value and depth in free agency.

Amen.

Sent from my iPad using CarolinaHuddle

[SevyDamus]

Yes and no.

It really all comes down to value and the specific structuring of the contracts. For instance, if JStu and Williams were each still hitting 1k rushing yards a year I don't think we'd be throwing a fit (or at least as much) about their contracts. Granted the majority of their ineffectiveness is due to injuries and poor line play. If Williams and Stu were tearing it up on the ground we'd have a nice pair of runners to take pressure off Cam and wouldn't feel as great of a need for receivers.

What has really crippled us in particular with the Hurney contracts isn't so much the money itself as it is the inability to gain leverage over players. Way too much guaranteed money on the back end gives you no other choice than to just let the player stay on the team and eat at the cap. Football is such a volatile and dynamic sport that it is pretty darn difficult to predict a player's place on your team in 3+ years. The rules, way the game is played and level of competition change rapidly and injuries happen.

I don't know why your bringing Mr Richardson's "cheapness" into this considering we are pretty darn close to the cap limit every year. The salary cap actually does exist in the NFL, it is enforced, and we aren't the only team who can't sign a player due to cap constraints or has to let players walk due to said constraints.

History generally supports the notion that signing superstar free agents to superstar contracts usually leads to a let down and will limit your ability to have a deep roster. Dynasties and consistent winners tend to not go crazy in free agency and build through the draft. I'd like the Panthers to be a dynasty, therefore I believe we should aim for value and depth in free agency.

Well said! Glad somebody else sees the big picture. GMan definitely does I see what he's trying to do & so far its worked not just for the Cap, but developing young inexpensive talent to take over for the big veteran contracts. Everything is a process & he's hit more then he missed so far.

[panthers123]

Well ran teams never "pay" for not heeding the almighty cap like fans on this website insist we do.

The cap excuse around here was a justification for why this team never participates in free agency, in spite of it having a damaging affect over the years. (Waiting on guys like Brandon Hogan to be somebody instead of adding real talent)

Just because you sign someone to a big contract now doesnt mean you have to reap the "punishment" of it in the future. Successful teams can focus on both present and future when dealing with the cap. Good teams tend to stay near the purported "fringe" where as teams like Cleveland perpetually have lots of "precious" space but are an annual dumpster fire.

Provided someone competent is managing the finances in San Fran, this will never hurt them provided Kaepernick doesnt explode and become worthless. (totally possible btw)

You would think fans here would eventually catch on to the cap excuse as what it is-an almost farce that teams use as a negotiating tactic- provided that stuff like this happens every offseason.

Alas, however, Panther fans will clamor "them Niners sure are gonna get da repurcussions of this in 10 years!!" while we spend next offseason signing Jimmy Doodlybob to start at OT for us because Jerry doesnt wanna dish out dollars to those villianous players in the free agent pool of evil and pestilence.

 

Wow I disagree with alot of this. 

 

We don't have the luxury of getting A players in free agency heck we cant even get the B players. The CAP is the reason. You just saw Kap get 20 mil. Cam is going to get more. Luke will be one of the highest paid players in the league the following year and we still gotta pay Star the year after. If you don't save now you will not be able to retain them. Those guys are more important than any just about all the free agents you can bring in.

 

I hate it when people say Jerry is cheap. Jerry doesn't even make personnel decisions because that is the GMs job. We have pretty much maxed out our salary cap every year (aka cap hell). He wants to win more than anyone else. You can't spend your money after your dead. 

[Thal]

the teams of the NFL are making the same type of mistakes Americans made that led to the 08 collapse. just like the country... teams will soon learn the same lessons America learned. Lucky for the Panthers and we the Panthers' fanbase, our team has already made the mistake. While the Saints, Cowboys, and Niners fall into their 4+ years of obscurity, the Panthers will continue to build a perennial winner with young, cheap talent and strong, competitive veterans, all while maintaining a favorable cap situation.

patience my friends. the Age of the Panther is dawning.

I'm sure you'll be saying the same thing 5 years from now. If cap space was all it cut out to be Cleveland and Oakland would alternate football trophies.

[KendrickPanther]

Why aren't the Saints in cap hell? Well they are, sort of. They let Reggie Bush walk. Marty Hurny would have given him a record signing bonus. They let Sproles walk. Hurney would have given him a bigger deal than Bush to keep him. They have let several decent football players walk or straight cut them. They had a dominant all world TE on a 3rd round draft pick rookie contract. Who did the Panthers draft ahead of Jimmy Graham? Jimmy Clausen, Brandon Lafell, and Armanti Edwards. That's right, Armanti Edwards earned more base salary in his career than Jimmy Graham.

 

But Graham is franchised, I'm not sure if he's signed yet, there was some litigation. But the Saints let some guys go including our Roman Harper to make space.

 

Most of the Niners don't make that much. Eventually they will try to cash in on their success. I heard Vernon Davis might sit out. Remember when we all wanted Carlos Rogers? They got him for peanuts. They offloaded Alex Smith and got some valuable draft picks for him.

 

Then there is Frank Gore. He is playing on a 3 year 19 million dollar contract with a 1.3m signing bonus. A very nice wage for a player the same age as Deangelo Williams. Deangelo got a $16 million dollar signing bonus. Yeah, that's just the signing bonus. Deangelo got $21 million GARAUNTEED. All he had to do was sign the paper and he was guaranteed more money than the entire value of Frank Gore's contract.

 

I know what you are thinking. Deangelo must have starred in his contract year. Nope. Deangelo rushed for 361 yards and 1 Touchdown then signed a 43 million dollar contract. Frank Gore signed for $19 million. Double Trouble Signed for $80 million. That is why we can't have nice things.

[M4gery]

the teams of the NFL are making the same type of mistakes Americans made that led to the 08 collapse. just like the country... teams will soon learn the same lessons America learned. Lucky for the Panthers and we the Panthers' fanbase, our team has already made the mistake. While the Saints, Cowboys, and Niners fall into their 4+ years of obscurity, the Panthers will continue to build a perennial winner with young, cheap talent and strong, competitive veterans, all while maintaining a favorable cap situation. 

 

patience my friends. the Age of the Panther is dawning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Uh America didnt learn anything.  Ever heard of QE infinity?  Sorry dont mean to turn this into a tinderbox discussion just found this funny.

 

[UpstatePanther]

 

 

oh i have definitely heard of QE inifinity. i actually appreciate you bringing that up. but thats what the government/Fed is doing. we the people arent taking on as much debt since 08, at least not that i can see...

[davos]

Yes and no.

 

It really all comes down to value and the specific structuring of the contracts.  For instance, if JStu and Williams were each still hitting 1k rushing yards a year I don't think we'd be throwing a fit (or at least as much) about their contracts.  Granted the majority of their ineffectiveness is due to injuries and poor line play.  If Williams and Stu were tearing it up on the ground we'd have a nice pair of runners to take pressure off Cam and wouldn't feel as great of a need for receivers.

 

What has really crippled us in particular with the Hurney contracts isn't so much the money itself as it is the inability to gain leverage over players.  Way too much guaranteed money on the back end gives you no other choice than to just let the player stay on the team and eat at the cap.  Football is such a volatile and dynamic sport that it is pretty darn difficult to predict a player's place on your team in 3+ years.  The rules, way the game is played and level of competition change rapidly and injuries happen.

 

I don't know why your bringing Mr Richardson's "cheapness" into this considering we are pretty darn close to the cap limit every year. The salary cap actually does exist in the NFL, it is enforced, and we aren't the only team who can't sign a player due to cap constraints or has to let players walk due to said constraints.

 

History generally supports the notion that signing superstar free agents to superstar contracts usually leads to a let down and will limit your ability to have a deep roster.  Dynasties and consistent winners tend to not go crazy in free agency and build through the draft.  I'd like the Panthers to be a dynasty, therefore I believe we should aim for value and depth in free agency.

 

great post

[iamhubby1]

You can have some players making max money. If they are the right players. Gman has proven you can fill out a roster and not spend a ton of money.

We still have a couple holes. But, we are closer than we have been in years. I can live with that.

[UpstatePanther]

I'm sure you'll be saying the same thing 5 years from now. If cap space was all it cut out to be Cleveland and Oakland would alternate football trophies.

 

i never said it was an end-all be-all. but holy hell... having cap room to compete for quality veterans sure as fug helps to put together competitive teams. everything in balance my friend. not spending enough money results in Cleveland and Oakland. Spending too much results in the 2009-11 Panthers... neither is desired