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Manziel Not Impressing

stirs

By stirs,
in Carolina Panthers

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FootballMaestro Newbie

FootballMaestro

Posted
Posted

It doesn't matter what their offense are predicated off of. The fact of the matter is both Wilson and Kaepernick...when asked or required to throw the ball more--whether by game plan or in-game circumstances...generally arises to the occasion.

 

One could argue that their better days are days in which the running attack is LESS featured in their respective offenses.

 

And Minnesota's offense is predicated off of the running game. It doesn't stop their passing attack, when needed or required or desired, from being mediocre at best.

 

Young Brady benefited from a solid running attack...didn't stop young Brady from lighting you up when needed or required or desired.

 

 

The same argument I had on another board. Everyone predicated that if you took Mike Vick and threw him into an offense (Like Andy Reid's) that Vick would NEVER succeed. Then Vick's second year in Philly happened.

 

You CANNOT make predictions on what QBs will do (especially young ones) in differing offenses. The BEST we can say is that Wilson and Kaepernick are generally efficient within the confines, boundaries, and limitations of their team's offensive system.

 

For all we know, you put Wilson in Denver's offense and he throws up 7000 yards and 80 tds.

 

It's as simple as you make it. 

 

There's coaching, teammates, OC coordinator, Offensive line, etc., than can effect a games outcome and player success. 

 

All I'll say is this: Place Wilson, RG3 and Kaepernick on the Panthers his first two years, and I think those guys get benched. They certainly wouldn't have put up Cam's numbers, especially in that type of vertical threat, big play offense Chud ran. 

 

Place, Wilson, Kaepernick and RG3 on Indiana or Miami their first two years, and let's see how they would have done. 

 

Don't you understand, Kaepernick and Wilson walked into great situations??

 

PS: Yes, Brady wasn't the same passer his first few seasons as a starter (another guy drafted in  a great situation) as he is now. However, it remains to be seen, if Wilson and Kaepernick will progress the way Brady did (who I will acknowledge, needs great protection or quick throw offense to excel). 

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FootballMaestro Newbie

FootballMaestro

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You can't say he's a quick throw one read QB unless you see him not able to master a pro style offense. So far he hasn't been in a pro style offense so far in the league. He does show sign that he can go through his reads. You make it sounds that's a hard thing. Brady spend his entire career dinking&dunking with those quick one read throws, that's the west coast offense. That's moving the football. It's as normal and effective as a hand off to a RB. RG3 is accurate with the short and intermediate routes. That's a good thing.

 

One major issues that Cam has had so far in his career is that he has not master the west coast short passing game yet. Like I said before, QBs don't go through reads for the sake of going through reads. Picking up 1st downs is the game. There is a reason Bilicheck like short quick receiver that can beat their man quick so he doesn't have to put too much pressure on the OL to hold on to 3 reads.

 

If the protection was their for RG3 and still bolting, why would the new coaching staff emphasize OL in the draft? You're not making any sense. Let me repeat: It's ok to one read and run if that's the play call. If a QB is out there just to prove they can go through reads they'd be outta the league. Plain and simple. This is not Madden or Burger King. QBs can't have it their way.

 

RG3 attempted to sit in the pocket last year, and was awful. That's why they told him to go back to being a dual threat QB?

 

No???? Don't you remember?

 

RG3 was one read out of necessity. Not cause it was there. He can't read defenses. 

 

Even Shanahan said that RG3's 'going to have to learn to read defenses and sit in the pocket and it will come'. No?

 

You seem to forget, Kirk Cousins was way ahead of RG3 in Camp, but the Snyder was hell bent on starting RG3, despite the fact the Shanahan's  had their doubts on his readiness. Don't you watch the games man!!??

 

To the Shanahan's credit, they did a great job camouflaging Griffin's short comings, hiding him behind one of the trickiest offenses (in my opinion) the league ever seen. It was like a Three Card Monty Game behind the line of scrimmage RG3's first year. 

 

No, Cam isn't as great in the short game as RG3. However, he did fine with it the second half of last season, and most/all of his third season. So I don't think that's an issue (though some people, such as yourself will bring it up to win an argument). 

 

Can you imagine RG3 trying to play in Cam's rookie season in Chud's vertical offense. He would have gotten killed!

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mcdougal Newbie

mcdougal

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It's as simple as you make it. 

 

There's coaching, teammates, OC coordinator, Offensive line, etc., than can effect a games outcome and player success. 

 

All I'll say is this: Place Wilson, RG3 and Kaepernick on the Panthers his first two years, and I think those guys get benched. They certainly wouldn't have put up Cam's numbers, especially in that type of vertical threat, big play offense Chud ran. 

 

Place, Wilson, Kaepernick and RG3 on Indiana or Miami their first two years, and let's see how they would have done. 

 

Don't you understand, Kaepernick and Wilson walked into great situations??

 

PS: Yes, Brady wasn't the same passer his first few seasons as a starter (another guy drafted in  a great situation) as he is now. However, it remains to be seen, if Wilson and Kaepernick will progress the way Brady did (who I will acknowledge, needs great protection or quick throw offense to excel). 

 

I know your stance on Kaepernick, so I will just repeat that I respectfully disagree.

 

And I told you this before: The 49ers feel EXACTLY the same way about Newton as you do about Kaepernick.

 

You would could never dream of Newton not doing as great as Kaepernick in SF if the situations were reverse. The people of 49ers disagree. They think Newton would completely flame out in 49er gear. Whereas, they think that Kaepernick would do quite well in Carolina---at least better than Newton has done.

 

Which is fine. Your a Panthers fan, it makes sense. However, (and you indicated this) I have NO idea why everyone-everywhere-in every fanbase thinks that Luck would be an upgrade over any other young QB (sometimes including their own--yes there are Panthers fans that would choose Luck over Newton).

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FootballMaestro Newbie

FootballMaestro

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I know your stance on Kaepernick, so I will just repeat that I respectfully disagree.

 

And I told you this before: The 49ers feel EXACTLY the same way about Newton as you do about Kaepernick.

 

You would could never dream of Newton not doing as great as Kaepernick in SF if the situations were reverse. The people of 49ers disagree. They think Newton would completely flame out in 49er gear. Whereas, they think that Kaepernick would do quite well in Carolina---at least better than Newton has done.

 

Which is fine. Your a Panthers fan, it makes sense. However, (and you indicated this) I have NO idea why everyone-everywhere-in every fanbase thinks that Luck would be an upgrade over any other young QB (sometimes including their own--yes there are Panthers fans that would choose Luck over Newton).

 

Are you talking about 49er fans, or their front office??

 

I bet the 49er front office would Jettison Kaepernick in a hot second for Cam before the thought was ever completed. 

 

And if you're going by Hargaugh's comments on Kaepernick...? Don't! He said the same things about Alex Smith, before he let him go.  LMAO. He's just knows how to boost up players that he knows needs it. And Kaep and Smith needed it. Don't fall for that one!

 

I couldn't care less what most 49er fans think (or generalizations about them), if you meant that. Means nothing to me. 

 

You act like Kaepernick was some world beater. How soon we forget. Career bust, Alex Smith put up great numbers and had Kaepernick sitting on the bench for a year and a half while he learned. If Kaep was so good, why couldn't he beat out Alex Smith? And why did Smith put up just as good a numbers as Kaep did in SF, and actually played better in Kansas City than Kaepernick did in SF last  year? Many 49er fans wanted him back to replace Kaep even. 

 

Are you actually trying to compare Cam and Kaepernick now? Kaepernick was never required to do what Cam does, carrying his load, mind you sitting on the bench behind a career bust such as Alex Smith.

 

That should tell you right there, it's "the system" that made Kaep successful, cause Smith played better in it his first two years with Harbaugh than Colin actually did. Are you going to deny that?  

 

This is not about favorites. I actually watch most NFL games, and don't play favorites. Unfortunately, many fans (such as the one's you're possibly mentioning) can't discern or breakdown a QB from the rest of his team, coaches and support system. They only follow/know the end result. usually it's a chain of things that happen before hand. Some happen off the field. And once again, if it was Harbaugh you were quoting: Don't get the Gas Face. He said the same things about Alex Smith. And if he could get Cam, he would dump Kaepernick in a NY minute, shipping him off to Siberia, in NFL purgatory in exchange. Trust me!

 

Remember, San Fran admitted (like Shananhan in DC), that Kaepernick wasn't there as a pocket QB (for his stage in the NFL). The reason why, cause he wasn't. He's a one read, happy feet guy. Always has been. So why we going around in circles/Why can't you see this?

 

The difference: Newton actually excelled in NFL offenses his first and second seasons (minus the Chud, Read Option emphasis experiment the first 8 games of his second), while both Kaepernick and RG3 struggled with them. And it has nothing with being a Panther or Newton fan. Those are just "dem facts". That should be your take away, if nothing else.  Cam EXCELLED IN NFL SETS and scenarios; RG3 and Kaep DID NOT, and/or or had to scrap them altogether. Those guys aren't patient, and go through their progressions. When have you ever seen either Kaep or RG3 sit tight in the pocket for what seems like hours (so close to the end zone to boot), with bodies falling all over them, then throw a TD pass such as Cam did with Olsen late in the season or playoffs (the one where Olsen immediately fell down after)?

 

We don't have to go round and round in circles like this. It is what it is, till proven otherwise. 

 

I'm done. But thanks!

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TheRed Newbie

TheRed

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I've seen them, but my understanding of that was always as a comment on his fragility, not any desire to see him hurt again.

If you think differently, I'd say ask someone who calls him that how they mean it.

 

It's classless no matter how you spin it.

 

If you want to know where that originated from and what people mean by it, look no further than

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Panthers8969 Community Regular

Panthers8969

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You know, way back in the forgotten ages of the distant past, the NFL champ would play the College All Stars in preseason.

I remember watching my beloved Browns getting their clocks cleaned by the College All Star squad.

Can't remember the year, but it must have been '55 or '56.

Apparently, they still haven't gotten over it.

Damn that's before my time but I wish they still did that. Would be really funny to watch

Sent from my iPhone using CarolinaHuddle

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Mr. Scot Grand Master

Mr. Scot

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Damn that's before my time but I wish they still did that. Would be really funny to watch

No way that'd ever happen today.

Too many people would be afraid of getting hurt in a meaningless game (and damaging their future earnings).

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