Manziel Not Impressing

[FootballMaestro]

I watch a lot of NFC East games, RG3 is quite patient in the pocket. If the play call ask for a single read that's what he does. Football is not freelancing. The Shanahans offense did have mostly one read kind of plays but for the plays where he had to go 1,2, and 3 that's what he did. With Morgan Moses now on the right side he'll put up gaudy numbers. Not to mention he's an accurate passer. That deep ball of his. Don't worry about RG3, he's not busting. I looked at his stats, he still manage to rake in over 3000 yards in 12 games. And that was a horrible year where everything around him was falling apart. He'll have a good career in the league, he has a nice skill set. 

 

This is not true (I guess it depends on YOUR definition of patient). 

 

RG3 (like Kaepernick) gets happy feet any time his first/defined read is taken away. This is why they were such a quick throw offense in his first year. His second year, they were behind so much, he had try to stand in there to play catch up. 

 

Yes, RG3 can fake his first throw, if it's called for a second one to follow (or he's waiting for his receiver to finish the defined route). That's what you may have noticed?. However, when his receivers are locked up, and/or the play/plan breaks down, he gets happy feet, or bolts. 

 

And when RG3 does run: He doesn't run with his head up, following his blockers looking for the best slots (such as Cam for example). He just peels out of there at/near high speed, such as Kaepernick. This one of the reasons why he takes such bad hits. 

 

PS: Most of RG3 yards last year, came in ULTRA/UBER GARBAGE TIME. During the first halves of games, when it counted, he was almost always god awful. 

 

Hist first year, the offense revolved around Albert Morris and the run game. RG3 successfully played off of that. As a matter of fact, they ran much more than they threw. That could have even have been the case last  year, even with RG3's higher yardage totals. 

 

I'm not sure about RG3's career myself. He has not shown himself to be a pocket passer in the least. So far he's a system QB. And this has nothing to do with me liking Cam. I had always maintained that Tannehill, Luck and Newton were ahead of RG3, Kaepernick, and even Wilson--in many respects--, going back two years ago. Hopefully, Griffin will get better and learn?

[mcdougal]

Can someone explain to me why Bradford, Gabbert, Ponder, or Tannehill are never talked about as examples of one-read, poor pocket presence, difficulty reading NFL coverages, and other "catch phrases" that the Huddle likes to throw out? (God knows Luck can do no wrong so I won't even bring him up)

 

Whether you want to talk about RGIII, Kaepernick, or Newton (I guess the only reason Wilson's name doesn't get brought up more often is because he won a Superbowl) ANY ONE of their seasons as PASSERS shows they are more capable than ANY of the prior mentioned QBs.

 

And it's not just the Huddle it is all over the internet--if someone wants to use an example of young "QB struggling" with mental aspects of the position--95% of the time either RGIII, Kaepernick, or Newton is used--and not say Weeden or even Cousins.

 

And finally, none of the bias that normally sticks to "running" QBs sticks to Manizel as far as passing. Lord have mercy, look at the profile of Manizel: short, undersized, uses his legs a lot, not particular strong arm, from a completely college spread option offense...AND we had fanbases BEGGING for their team to draft Manizel. When The Golden Calf of Bristol struggled, I never heard anyone (except Stephen A. Smith) suggest that the reason could be partly mental--ie he is not smart enough to understand pro-style concepts, and that he got to the NFL only because of his physical traits. 

 

I wonder if Braxton Miller has a big year if he will get the Newton/Young treatment or the Manizel/The Golden Calf of Bristol treatment. 

[FootballMaestro]

Can someone explain to me why Bradford, Gabbert, Ponder, or Tannehill is never talked about as example of one-read, poor pocket presence, difficulty reading NFL coverages, and other "catch phrases" that the Huddle likes to throw out? (God knows Luck can do no wrong so I won't even bring him up)

 

Whether you want to talk about RGIII, Kaepernick, or Newton (I guess the only reason Wilson's name doesn't get brought up more often is because he won a Superbowl) ANY ONE of their seasons as PASSERS shows they are more capable than ANY of the prior mentioned QBs.

 

And it's not just the Huddle it is all over the internet--if someone wants to use an example of young "QB struggling" with mental aspects of the position--95% of the time either RGIII, Kaepernick, or Newton is used--and not say Weeden or even Cousins.

 

And finally, none of the bias that normally sticks to "running" QBs sticks to Manizel as far as passing. Lord have mercy, look at the profile of Manizel-short, undersized, uses his legs a lot, not particular strong arm, from a completely college spread option offense...AND we had fanbases BEGGING for their team to draft Manizel. When The Golden Calf of Bristol struggled, I never heard anyone (except Stephen A. Smith) suggest that the reason could be partly mental--ie he is not smart enough to understand pro-style concepts and he got to the NFL only because of his physical traits. 

 

I wonder if Braxton Miller has a big year if he will get the Newton/Young treatment or the Manizel/The Golden Calf of Bristol treatment. 

 

I can comment on a lot of what you said. However, at the moment I'll just respond to one. 

 

I have noticed this: A lot of the people who normally would have (or have) killed "Running QB's in the media, apparently like Johnny Manziel a lot (or at least wish him well).

 

As you were indicating. Many of these same people, short changed Cam and RG3 (most of them didn't know of or care for Kaepernick until he started the middle of his second year). But now they all magically feel Manziel would do well, when they never cared for his type of QB at all before. 

 

Is this pure hypocrisy? I can think of a multiplicity of reasons, besides what some would feel are some of the obvious reasons. 

[mcdougal]

This is not true (I guess it depends on YOUR definition of patient). 

 

RG3 (like Kaepernick) gets happy feet any time his first/defined read is taken away. This is why they were such a quick throw offense in his first year. His second year, they were behind so much, he had try to stand in there to play catch up. 

 

Yes, RG3 can fake his first throw, if it's called for a second (or he's waiting for his receiver to finish the defined route). That's what you may have noticed?. However, when his receivers are locked up, and/or the play/plan breaks down, he gets happy feet, or bolts. 

 

And when RG3 does run: He doesn't run with his head up, following his blockers, looking for the best slots (such as Cam for example). He just peels out of there at/near high speed, such as Kaepernick. This one of the reasons why he takes such bad hits. 

 

PS: Most of RG3 yards last year, came in ULTRA/UBER GARBAGE TIME. During the first halves of games, when it counted, he was almost always god awful. 

 

Hist first year, the offense revolved around Albert Morris and the run game. RG3 played off of that. As a matter of fact, they ran much more than they threw. That could have even have been the case last  year, even with RG3's higher yardage totals. 

 

I'm not sure about RG3's career myself. He has not shown himself to be a pocket passer in the least. So far he's a system QB. And this has nothing to do with me liking Cam. I had always maintained that Tannehill, Luck and Newton were ahead of RG3, Kaepernick, and even Wilson in many respects, going back two years ago. Hopefully, Griffin will get better and learn?

 

 

^^^^^ Exhibit "A." FM maintains that Tannehill is ahead of Wilson "in many respects" as it relates to playing QB.

 

You just can not make this stuff up... 

[FootballMaestro]

^^^^^ Exhibit "A." FM maintains that Tannehill is ahead of Wilson "in many respects" as it relates to playing QB.

 

You just can not make this stuff up... 

 

Well, that is probably true. 

 

As they're things that Tannehill has to do in the Miami offense that Wilson doesn't have to do in Seattles. 

 

This was certainly the case early, and maybe Wilson's entire first season. He was basically spoon fed along. 

 

Tannehill, carries a much heavier load and burden on his team. 

 

All you have to ask yourself is, what if they switched teams? Would Wilson do as well, and be regarded as a top young QB? And how would Tannehill fit into Seattle? Quite frankly, I think any QB could, as you're not necessarily required to do much for the teams success. 

 

Yes, Wilson will make big plays scrambling with his legs. However, I think Tannehill would throw deep, more often to off set that ability in Wilson. 

 

My two cents. 

[FootballMaestro]

Ever heard Stephen A. Smith say 'top dancing like the great Gregory Hines' in regard to Brady? All QBs see ghost when the read, based on the play call, is not there. The protection also dictate the number of reads. You can't go through reads just for the sake of going through reads. The Shanahan offense was a 1 or 2 read offense. In the rare time it was called for him to go 1, 2, 3 he did. RG3 is very versatile and smart.

 

Garbage time or not he did throw the football to a receiver that ran a route and catch the football. The kid is very talented. Stop it!

 

If you watch this video you's see exactly what I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gARRX67GUc

 

The Shannys were just obsessed with that style of offense. The 1st half of the 2nd Giants he was picking them apart with the West Coas short passing attack and were moving the ball at ease. They went up by 17(I think). In the 2nd half the Shannys went full retard and went back to that one read read-option crap so they lost the game. There is a reason the Shannys were fired. They wouldn't stop unless RG3 was paralyzed. You'll see what I'm talking about this coming season.

 

 

Hate it or love it, the kid is super talented.

 

That is what RG3 is. He's a quick throw, one read QB, who plays off the run game. His first year was how he was able to have success playing that way. 

 

When they tried to turn him into a pocket passer (based off of RG3 and pops desires, and the skins behind so far behind in games), he sucked. 

 

Yes, Brady gets happy feet as well. No doubt (though what you may see as Happy Feet, could be Brady moving his feet in formation as he surveys the field). And he even sucks when the protection breaks down, many times. Yes! However, he excels when he has a clean pocket and time to throw. Unfortunately, that's not RG3. He bolts. 

 

Griffin's not an accomplished pocket passer in the least at this point of his career. And his first year, certainly didn't help him. However, that was done out of necessity. Same with Kaepernick. These guys have to learn to be NFL pocket QB's, especially RG3 who has a tendency to take big licks/hits. 

[mcdougal]

I can comment on a lot of what you said. However, at the moment I'll just respond to one. 

 

I have noticed this: A lot of the people who normally would have (or have) killed "Running QB's in the media, apparently like Johnny Manziel a lot (or at least wish him well).

 

As you were indicating. Many of these same people, short changed Cam and RG3 (most of them didn't know of or care for Kaepernick until he started the middle of his second year). But now they all magically feel Manziel would do well, when they never cared for his type of QB at all before. 

 

Is this pure hypocrisy? I can think of a multiplicity of reasons, besides what some would feel are some of the obvious reasons. 

 

It is at least hypocrisy. I remember when I was at FSU right before the The Golden Calf of Bristol era began at UF. I always visited their college football forum to see what the enemy was up to. The one feeling you always got (and it was stated explicitly by some) was that UF would never WANT a "dual-threat" QB. This was at the time of Vince Young and Pat White, and therefore spread option was starting to really take hold of top 25 college programs. UF fanbase was in general agreement that they wanted to remain pro-style.

 

Not a year later, along comes Chris Leak and "you know who" as his backup.

 

Let's just say that those SAME individuals that were explicit in their desires to avoid the spread option at UF couldn't change their minds quick enough. 

 

They had every right to change their minds and look what The Golden Calf of Bristol did for UF in his 3 years starting, they were justified. But, I always found it highly suspect that before we all knew what he would become, that the same people who so disliked spread option QBs would fall the hardest for The Golden Calf of Bristol and called for him to start over Leak.

 

Complete (while justified) hypocrisy. 

[FootballMaestro]

It is at least hypocrisy. I remember when I was at FSU right before the The Golden Calf of Bristol era began at UF. I always visited their college football forum to see what the enemy was up to. The one feeling you always got (and it was stated explicitly by some) was that UF would never WANT a "dual-threat" QB. This was at the time of Vince Young and Pat White, and therefore spread option was starting to really take hold of top 25 college programs. UF fanbase was in general agreement that they wanted to remain pro-style.

 

Not a year later, along comes Chris Leak and "you know who" as his backup.

 

Let's just say that those SAME individuals that were explicit in their desires to avoid the spread option at UF couldn't change their minds quick enough. 

 

They had every right to change their minds and look what The Golden Calf of Bristol did for UF in his 3 years starting, they were justified. But, I always found it highly suspect that before we all knew what he would become, that the same people who so disliked spread option QBs would fall the hardest for The Golden Calf of Bristol and called for him to start over Leak.

 

Complete (while justified) hypocrisy. 

 

Gotcha. 

 

Mike Francesca, an influential radio guy in NY who has always hated "running QB's (even if they actually weren't, but it was their reputation)", all of a sudden loves Manziel. And wishes him well. He's not the only one. Isn't that amazing? 

 

It's the same, regarding the flashy, "hip hop", "2014 type young athlete" who self promotes. All of a sudden they like that guy in Manziel. 

 

Is it a pure double standard, racism, or the fact that they actually watched Manziel play (maybe cause he was white), so now they have familiarity, or all of the above or some?? SMH/LOL

 

I know some don't want to hear what was previously stated. However, it has to be part of the analysis when addressing, 'why some in the media who historically hated dual threat QB's (especially small ones), all of a sudden love Manziel'?

 

The same was done for The Golden Calf of Bristol. But at least you could say he had religious true believers on his side supporting him (as weak as that explanation was). Who/What does Manziel have in comparison (media guys that love to carouse, promote themselves and party)?

[mcdougal]

Well, that is probably true. 

 

As they're things that Tannehill has to do in the Miami offense that Wilson doesn't have to do in Seattles. 

 

This was certainly the case early, and maybe Wilson's entire first season. He was basically spoon fed along. 

 

Tannehill, carries a much heavier load and burden on his team. 

 

All you have to ask yourself is, what if they switched teams? Would Wilson do as well, and be regarded as a top young QB? And how would Tannehill fit into Seattle? Quite frankly, I think any QB could, as you're not necessarily required to do much for the teams success. 

 

Yes, Wilson will make big plays scrambling with his legs. However, I think Tannehill would throw deep, more often to off set that ability in Wilson. 

 

My two cents. 

 

I knew you were going to say that. 

 

To make a long story short. I have had these discussions before so I will be brief:

 

At least last year: The more Wilson threw the ball, the MORE efficient he generally became. The same thing is true for Kaepernick. Kaepernick's highest rated games (per QB rating system) came on days in which he threw the most.

 

Oddly enough, one Andrew Luck is the opposite. Luck's best games tended to occur on days he threw the LEAST. The more Luck threw, the LESS efficient he was---generally.

 

The best Wilson days came on days in which he was asked or required to do more (more as far as passing attempts).

 

One of the best displays of young playoff QBing I witness was Wilson CARRYING the Seahawks vs. the Falcons. I personally feel that Tannehill could NEVER do that--and Tannehill has NEVER done that in ANY pro or college game I have witness.

 

So in short, NO, Tannehill could not switch places with Wilson and the Seahawks be as successful.

 

Just because Wilson is not required to "do a lot" in Seattle...doesn't mean that when the time comes he cannot pick your defense apart and score at will.

 

There was a time that Brady didn't "do a lot" in New England. But a young Brady could absolutely destroy your defense if he needed to. 

[FootballMaestro]

I knew you were going to say that. 

 

To make a long story short. I have had these discussions before so I will be brief:

 

At least last year: The more Wilson threw the ball, the MORE efficient he generally became. The same thing is true for Kaepernick. Kaepernick's highest rated games (per QB rating system) came on days in which he threw the most.

 

Oddly enough, one Andrew Luck is the opposite. Luck's best games tended to occur on days he threw the LEAST. The more Luck threw, the LESS efficient he was---generally.

 

The best Wilson days came on days in which he was asked or required to do more (more as far as passing attempts).

 

One of the best displays of young playoff QBing I witness was Wilson CARRYING the Seahawks vs. the Falcons. I personally feel that Tannehill could NEVER do that--and Tannehill has NEVER done that in ANY pro or college game I have witness.

 

So in short, NO, Tannehill could not switch places with Wilson and the Seahawks be as successful.

 

Just because Wilson is not required to "do a lot" in Seattle...doesn't mean that when the time comes he cannot pick your defense apart and score at will.

 

There was a time that Brady didn't "do a lot" in New England. But a young Brady could absolutely destroy your defense if he needed to. 

 

Yeah, but what you're forgetting is: Seattle's and Francisco's offense is predicated off of their running, NOT THEIR PASSING GAMES. 

 

So most of the success that those guy will have, is because of the threat of their running games. 

 

Take Marshall Lynch and Frank Gore off those teams, then see how well those guys will throw when it's a staple of their offense?

 

Remember, despite what you said. Both Seattle and San Fran ran the ball much more than they threw. They're running teams, not passing ones. 

 

And it is/was clear, that both Kaepernick and Wilson were spoon fed along their first NFL seasons, by heavily relying on their running games, and utilizing many quick throws to offset their lack of reading defenses and responding to pass rushes. 

 

Not saying Wilson hasn't progressed and gotten better. He has. However, they're are many things which he doesn't have to carry the burden with in Seattle. Kaepernick's even worse. At least Wilson can scramble and buy time, then hit a receiver (albeit with a circus catch). RG3 and Kaepernick, usually bolts in that type situation. 

 

Yes, Luck is over rated indeed. However, it's usually the case, 'the more you throw, the worse your percentages are (especially if you're losing big)'. As I stated, it doesn't happen with Kaep and Wilson as much, cause they have cushy run games, offensive lines and defenses to rely on. And how often, were those guys ever behind big in games (to lower their efficiency with more throws)? Probably not much?

[Mr. Scot]

Can someone explain to me why Bradford, Gabbert, Ponder, or Tannehill are never talked about as examples of one-read, poor pocket presence, difficulty reading NFL coverages, and other "catch phrases" that the Huddle likes to throw out? (God knows Luck can do no wrong so I won't even bring him up)

 

Because it's a Panthers board and none of those guys play for division rivals, so nobody gives a s--t about them on here.

 

If you want to see bad stuff about Matt Ryan, Drew Brees and whomever the Bucs are starting next, this is the place.  If you want people ripping quarterbacks that play in other divisions, go see their rival fan boards.  I have, and they get ripped plenty.  Sometimes on their own fan boards too, generally after a loss (just like here).

 

The one exception among those you listed is Gabbert, who's been discussed here plenty.  And if you actually believe no one on this board knocks Gabbert, you must not read here much :lol:

 

Gabbert's a red-headed stepchild in this forum because he and Cam were tied together in the draft, so a lot of it's emotional.  But objectively, the criticism he gets is usually deserved because he legitimately stinks. 

 

The others have only been discussed here when we've played them, and they've gotten ripped then too.  Bradford is a highly overpaid bust.  Ponder isn't an NFL starter.  Tannehill?  He might actually be a pretty good quarterback, but he still got fileted when we played him.

 

See, unless there's some big or interesting news about them, there's no reason to talk about them.  More often than not, the only time QBs outside the division even come up is because some yahoo comes on here whining that no one ever says anything bad about (insert QB here).  Heck, what do you think this thread is about?

 

What do you guys want?  A sub-forum where people regularly bad mouth all the quarterbacks you hate?  Ask Zod.  He could probably use a good laugh :rolleyes:

 

Regardless, the reason these guys aren't talked about badly on here is because they're rarely talked about at all. 

 

Nobody cares.

 

(except the whiners)

[tiger7_88]

 You can wish him injury all you want that ain't gonna change.

 

See here's the problem with you and Hape... the strawmen you constantly set up so that you can knock them down and 

"prove" your argument.

 

If the point you were making was so solid and easy to defend you wouldn't have to make up lies about how other people supposedly think and/or feel about RG3.

[mcdougal]

Yeah, but what you're forgetting is, Seattle's and Francisco's offense is predicated off of their running, NOT THEIR PASSING GAMES. 

 

So most of the success that those guy will have, is because of the threat of their running games. 

 

Take Marshall Lynch and Frank Gore off those teams, then see how well those guys will throw when it's a staple of their offense?

 

Remember, despite what you said. Both Seattle and San Fran ran the ball much more than they threw. They're running teams, not passing ones. 

 

And it is/was clear, that both Kaepernick and Wilson were spoon fed along their first NFL seasons, by heavily relying on their running games, and utilizing many quick throws to offset their lack of reading defenses and responding to pass rushes. 

 

Not saying Wilson hasn't progressed and gotten better. He has. However, they're are many things which he doesn't have to carry the burden with in Seattle. Kaepernick's even worse. At least Wilson can scramble and buy time, then hit a receiver (albeit with a circus catch). RG3 and Kaepernick, usually bolts in that type situation. 

 

Yes, Luck is over rated indeed. However, it's usually the case, 'the more you throw, the worse your percentages are (especially if you're losing big)'. As I stated, it doesn't happen with Kaep and Wilson as much, cause they have cushy run games, offensive lines and defenses to rely on. And how often, were those guys ever behind big in games?

 

It doesn't matter what their offense are predicated off of. The fact of the matter is both Wilson and Kaepernick...when asked or required to throw the ball more--whether by game plan or in-game circumstances...generally arises to the occasion.

 

One could argue that their better days are days in which the running attack is LESS featured in their respective offenses.

 

And Minnesota's offense is predicated off of the running game. It doesn't stop their passing attack, when needed or required or desired, from being mediocre at best.

 

Young Brady benefited from a solid running attack...didn't stop young Brady from lighting you up when needed or required or desired.

 

 

The same argument I had on another board. Everyone predicated that if you took Mike Vick and threw him into an offense (Like Andy Reid's) that Vick would NEVER succeed. Then Vick's second year in Philly happened.

 

You CANNOT make predictions on what QBs will do (especially young ones) in differing offenses. The BEST we can say is that Wilson and Kaepernick are generally efficient within the confines, boundaries, and limitations of their team's offensive system.

 

For all we know, you put Wilson in Denver's offense and he throws up 7000 yards and 80 tds.

[FootballMaestro]

At the end of the day it's who ever dominate the league in the long run that matters. Everything you mentioned thus far are short term. At some point they will have no choice but to give those players their dues and stop disrespecting them. Do you think they'd be saying Patrick Peterson or Sherman as the best CB now if they had an even sub par alternative?  They have no choice but to chose between apples and apples. Any apples and oranges comparisons don't work in those QB's favor. It's the nature of this country.

 

What separate the NFL from other league like the NBA is they get to chose their stars. They get to chose who is the greatest. The NFL is a lot similar to WWF. Because I know that's the case I don't really care when someone say Peyton is the best player in the league. A player that was almost helpless for his team in the most important game. A player so great that they went shopping for every top defensive and offensive players to help him even more in the off season. What a joke! Not buying.

 

When they're so happy praising Manziel because he ran a 4.68 and rush for some yards against some undisciplined college offenses, I smile because it proves that they're very jealous of guys like Cam.

 

Yeah, Cleveland will probably rue the day they chose Manziel over Bridgewater (unless Bridgewater sucks as well). 

 

Give Jacksonville credit. Their an ass bad team and location (with all due respect to Central, Northeastern Floridians). 

 

However, they jettisoned Gabbert from his starting position. And refused to sign The Golden Calf of Bristol, despite fan and media pressure to do so. 

 

Hopefully, the will be rewarded some day for their judicious decisions, and no decisions. 

 

Cleveland went for the hype and shiny gold chains (literally)!!