Panthers meet with Ryan Shazier

[4Corners]

no way would i agree with a LB in the 1st round. Gettleman  did not take care of the needs and holes in free agency, for the team to go bpa especially at LB. again LB should be addressed in the mid-later rounds with guys like Telvin Smith, Van Noy, Zumwalt, Bradford, or Kirksey etc....

 

those guys could contribute just as much as Shaizer who could be had in the 2nd-5th rounds.

 

this post is right on the money.

 

If they need some OLB pass rushing specialist who is only going play at most half the defensive snaps during a game, they can get that kind of value in the later rounds. Sure, we need to start planning for #58 to no longer be on the team but we have absolutely more glaring needs than drafting a toy (who may actually project better as a safety in the NFL than a LB). 

 

Like I said earlier, I truly think that a reasonable, intelligent argument could be made that a DE is more of a need than a LB. 

[Mr. Scot]

Oh no!!

You're right Justin was the center and Hangman was the top backup so there wasn't a need for Kali. Also like how you trying to paint Justin as a bad player to make a point. In reality he's gone on to have a strong career with the Chargers I think.

Foster wasn't pre Hurney because Hurney was here when he was drafted also Foster was a Hurney and Fox guy even thoe they didn't draft him. Again that doesn't explain drafting Stew 2 years after Dwill. Also mix Eric Shelton in there as well.

They were still trying to keep Pep when drafting E Brown. Also they had Brayton, CJ and( I could be wrong) Stanley McClover who they had high hopes for.

Point being you can't day Hurney drafted based on needs when half the time he drafted on keeping a strength strong as well.

 

Hartwig was let go right after that season, two years into his five year deal.

 

Fixed the bit about Foster.  He was Hurney's first draft.  Both Shelton and Stewart were efforts to replace Stephen Davis.

 

Stanley McClover was long gone before Everette Brown was taken.  Brown was drafted because they switched DCs that year and needed a Dwight Freeney type guy to suit Ron Meeks preference for smaller, faster DEs.

 

And I'll ask you the same question I asked Rayzor.  What good does it do to draft a guy for need if your evaluation says that guy isn't good enough?  You wind up passing on a player you could have had for ten years in favor of a guy you'll nbeed to replace in two.

[PFChangz]

koundijo or moses, but you aren't getting what my argument is.

if you don't address it now, how are you going to do it? when are you going to find these sure fire franchise LTs aside from the early part of the first round? this draft is as good as there has been for OT prospect in years. if you don't take a little gamble/risk (or maybe reach a little) to fill the role you need, what is your long term solution? juat sit and eait hoping that one will fall into your lap?

 

I see your argument but my argument with regards to the title of this thread is that Shazier would be a great pick at 28 provided a player like Moses is not available. I don't know how I feel about Kuandijo just yet but I agree he could be worth the risk/gamble. What people don't seem to realize is what needs to be taken into account when picking at 28. As you said earlier sacrifices need to be made which I believe is true but in an opposite way. As in, sacrifice you hope of getting an OT in the first. All the great OT talent will most likely be gone by 28 so you take the best sure fire player you can get that will actually benefit the team without stockpiling a position. 

You know how you do address the need though? You wait until the second round! There is just as much gamble/risk in waiting to pick an OT in the second as there is in reaching for one in the 1st. This draft lasts longer than the 1st round so there is no problem with looking for OT talent in the second or even later rounds when it just isn't there in the 1st.

[4Corners]

This is the worst 4-3 De draft in the last few years. If the evaluation process is good. They will realize and notice avg. Prospect are only getting higher grades because there aren't many in this draft.

 

That still doesn't negate the argument that a DE is more a need for this team than a LB. 

[4Corners]

I don't usually give too much credit to Marc James on WFNZ - but he did make a reasonable point. If Bridgewater or Bortles drop, 28 is a position where a lot of teams could come knocking. I'd be all ears to a trade, especially if that meant doubling up in the 2nd round and possibly grabbing an extra first next year. 

[Mr. Scot]

no raching allowed, regardless of how miniscule or the impact it would make to a very important part of your team that is very weak?

and i'm still left with the question of what makes you sure that we will address that in later rounds and are you ok with the very real possibility that it will be neglected yet another year and we'll have to go into anothwr season with piss poor run blocking and near death experiences for cam because we are relying on scraps for the OL?

just how long are you fine with weak parts on the team being overlooked so we can add to areas that are already loaded with talent?

 

If you think I'm fine with not addressing needs, you're not getting me.

 

I'm saying reaching for a need with a draft pick, especially a first rounder, is fool's gold.

 

If you take a mediocre offensive lineman just to take an offensive lineman, you haven't really helped yourself.

 

In that scenario, the need you thought you were addressing wasn't actually addressed, and you passed up a player that could have been a lynchpin for your team in the process.

 

That's what I'm not on board with.

[rayzor]

See, this is the crux of the whole argument.

If you believe those guys are franchise tackles, then yes you take them.

If you don't, then taking them in the first round isn't going to make them into franchise tackles. What you wind up doing instead is passing on a better player for a guy who still doesn't fill a need because he's not that franchise guy.

Final result then is that you pass on a guy who could've filled a roster spot for a decade for a guy who'll only be around for a couple before being relegated to a backup or just being outright let go (which puts you right back where you were before you drafted him),

It all ultimately rests on getting the evaluation right.

You can't substitute fool's gold for real gold and expect to sustain long term success. What good does filling a need do if the guy you fill it with is mediocre?

'are' franchise guys or 'can be' franchise guys? because there are are no sure things, esp. outside of the first 5-10 picks.

and if you believe that they can be...or even if they are sure things, do you still pass them up if you have a guy you think is more talented but not a need?

i believe it's fools gold to believe the success we had last year is sustainable having lost our franchise LT and really having done nothing to improve (or even return to the level we had last year) an offense that was much less than stellar last year. we didn't have a potent offense last year. we didn't have a good run game (outside of the opportunist extraordinaire cam). we didn't have anything remotely resembling a dynamic or prolific passing game last year, and we just didn't/couldn't score that much...and we are in worse shape heading into the season this year.

we aren't going to get better unless we improve our areas of deficiencies and keep letting them worsen.

[WOW!!]

Hartwig was let go right after that season, two years into his five year deal.

Fixed the bit about Foster. He was Hurney's first draft. Both Shelton and Stewart were efforts to replace Stephen Davis.

Stanley McClover was long gone before Everette Brown was taken. Brown was drafted because they switched DCs that year and needed a Dwight Freeney type guy to suit Ron Meeks preference for smaller, faster DEs.

And I'll ask you the same question I asked Rayzor. What good does it do to draft a guy for need if your evaluation says that guy isn't good enough? You wind up passing on a player you could have had for ten years in favor of a guy you'll nbeed to replace in two.

If they wanted E Brown to fit a defense? Then why sign Brayton that off-season he didn't fit that scheme.

To answer your question.

1st this draft is to deep in all 3 of our positions of need that it shouldn't be a issue. I don't think the rating between Shaizer and a Ot, Wr or CB prospect will be so different.

2nd

Why not trade back get more picks if a player is rated lower get him and more picks instead of a player who won't have nearly the impact.

[TheRed]

Cam Newton was the leading rusher in 6 games last year? Well clearly OL is a need, but not before LB guys.

[Cpt slay a ho]

i'd really only agree with this if he was bpa, but there's way too many better players that fill and immediate need that will be there at 28 so it's a slim chance

[Mr. Scot]

'are' franchise guys or 'can be' franchise guys? because there are are no sure things, esp. outside of the first 5-10 picks.

and if you believe that they can be...or even if they are sure things, do you still pass them up if you have a guy you think is more talented but not a need?

i believe it's fools gold to believe the success we had last year is sustainable having lost our franchise LT and really having done nothing to improve (or even return to the level we had last year) an offense that was much less than stellar last year. we didn't have a potent offense last year. we didn't have a good run game (outside of the opportunist extraordinaire cam). we didn't have anything remotely resembling a dynamic or prolific passing game last year, and we just didn't/couldn't score that much...and we are in worse shape heading into the season this year.

we aren't going to get better unless we improve our areas of deficiencies and keep letting them worsen.

 

Nothing yet.  The offseaon is not over as of this weekend.

 

Are they franchise or not?  The evaluation process answers those questions.

 

I agree we need to improve the team.

 

I disagree with the notion that passing over a better player for a worse one is the right way to do that.

 

On this, we have to agree to disagree.

 

[rayzor]

If you think I'm fine with not addressing needs, you're not getting me.

I'm saying reaching for a need with a draft pick, especially a first rounder, is fool's gold.

If you take a mediocre offensive lineman just to take an offensive lineman, you haven't really helped yourself.

In that scenario, the need you thought you were addressing wasn't actually addressed, and you passed up a player that could have been a lynchpin for your team in the process.

That's what I'm not on board with.

then when and how do you address LT?

[Mr. Scot]

If they wanted E Brown to fit a defense? Then why sign Brayton that off-season he didn't fit that scheme.

To answer your question.

1st this draft is to deep in all 3 of our positions of need that it shouldn't be a issue. I don't think the rating between Shaizer and a Ot, Wr or CB prospect will be so different.

2nd

Why not trade back get more picks if a player is rated lower get him and more picks instead of a player who won't have nearly the impact.

 

They may trade back if they don't think any of the prospects are worth it.  Gettleman isn't a fan of it, but he's never said he won't do it.  If he thinks it's the right call, he will.

 

As to the evaluation, we have no idea how Shazier, Moses, Kouandjio, Robinson or anyone else is rated by the Panthers.

 

What I do know is that I want them to stick by their ratings and their board.

[EightyNine]

All qualities we may need soon because 1) Much as I love Thomas Davis, he's not getting any younger and 2) I don't think he has another miracle comeback in him if one of his knees goes again.

 

Think 'successor', not 'replacement'.

 

 

The reason this may not be likely is because you hear Gettleman (and others) say they want their first round picks to be someone who can make an "immediate impact."  If we were gonna take him, i think they would want to know that he can make a big impact coming in and playing the WLB spot immediately.  I'm not sure if we would take him if we thought the rewards would come once he supplants TD.