Newtcase

2 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

I just am shocked we're going down this road where we're walking back everything we saw with our own two eyes last year and trying to delude ourselves into thinking maybe our receivers, o-line, playcalling, coaching staff, etc. were not so bad and it was all Bryce's fault.  Just to clarify, is it really your position that we actually had a talented roster and coaching staff (particularly on the offensive side) that were all held back by Bryce?  Or am I misunderstanding?  Cause to me, that's a much harder position to defend than what the "Bryce cope" squad is saying, which is that Bryce was surely part of the problem but our team was an absolute shitshow that made it hard to properly apportion how much blame falls on his shoulders.  I truly don't understand why that is such an unreasonable position.

By no means am I arguing that it's all Bryce, but I would argue that he made us WORSE by a wide margin.

Comparatively, I think most would agree that the Jets expectations fell off a cliff when Rodgers was replaced by Wilson after one series.  The betting odds certainly did.  Competent QB play changes everything.

Believe it or not, I'm not rooting for the kid to fail.  I'd be thrilled to be wrong and it certainly wouldn't be the first time.  My opinions are based off what has happened, not what might happen.  I'm always open to include new information and shift my opinion as appropriate.  I don't have to fit in neat predefined boxes built by insecure huddlers that demand loyalty in the face of disaster.

6 minutes ago, Icege said:

 

By the very definition, your attempt to exclusively focus on protection is a strawman.

As stated already, the combination of bad protection, lack of separation, poor play design, and poor play calling made life even more difficult for a rookie QB. Nobody could have performed well under those conditions. You're picking strictly one part of that and pointing out that a x3 SB champ and 8yr vet were pressured a similar amount of times played better. You're doing this because think that you can easily defeat that when the actual argument is ALL of those factors made success impossible for any QB. Not just one factor.

tldr; nobody has said Bryce played bad just because of the bad protection so your attempt to focus solely on that when comparing a rookie to a x3 SB champ + 8yr vet is a strawman fallacy.

What you see as cause I see as effect.  Soon it will be undeniable to all.

19 minutes ago, Icege said:

You stated, "if Bryce sustained more drives," as if he was doing this alone. Again, how is a QB supposed to operate when he's being pressured on nearly 25% of his passing attempts and all of his targets save for Adam Thielen have a lower separation average than the league's?

I want to address this metric as well.

Things like pressures, hits and sacks are cold hard facts.  No nuisance at all.

But WR separation charts....hmmm...tell me more.  I have questions.

Is the amount of separation measured for each pass at the moment the ball arrives to intended receiver?  If it is how do we know the pass didn't affect the seperation?  I.E. thowing someone open vs a receiver needing to slow down for an underthrown pass, thus allowing a defender to catch up?  We certainly saw plenty of this and it's certainly a demarcation point for good vs bad QBs.

Maybe the amount of separation is for every receiver on every play.  If it is at what point is it measured?  How does the statistic recorder know where the route is supposed to create separation?

Does it account for other receivers that may have been wide open or just the one the pass went to?

Please explain to me these from your chart.

5 minutes ago, Icege said:

It is the very definition of a strawman argument because you're attempting to take a rookie QB that had no protection, receivers that could not separate, bad play calling, and bad play design and compare him to a x3 Super Bowl champion and a QB that has been in the league since 2016.

Dude, you're clowning right?  Otherwise you have no idea what a strawman actually is.  Let me spell it out for you.

Did Mahommes perform well under pressure? Yes or No (Support with direct evidence)

Did Goff perform well under pressure?  Yes or No (Support with direct evidence)

Did Bryce perform well under pressure?  Yes or No (Support with direct evidence)

Answers....Yes, Yes, No.

Once you start arguing outside of the evidence you are presenting a strawman argument.  Now if you want to present a new argument about comparing experience or WR separation by all means make that argument.  But this argument is simply that two QBs performed much better under similar pressure.

17 minutes ago, Icege said:

I respect the attempt to strawman, but it wasn't just protection. Weapons that can get open would have helped tremendously.

Bryce also had a higher pressure %, which would have been a more accurate way to rank who was under pressure most often. Mahomes was pressured just twice more on 70 more attempts.

Is he the guy? idk but I do know that last year he flashed despite everything going wrong that could. Can he consistently show those flashes? We'll have to just wait and see.

 

Our weapons looked great against Green Bay and everyone ran around saying how great Bryce played.  They played pretty damn decent against Seattle as well.  You could consider the possibility that we're not as bad as Bryce made them look as they looked a helluva lot better on his best day didn't they?

Pointing out higher success against higher pressure rates is a direct argument against "No one could succeed under that amount of pressure".  In no way is this a strawman argument.  If it is then anyone, any time, anywhere could claim any comparison is a strawman.  If you could draw a more direct argument then I'd love to hear it.

Regarding pressure %, if Bryce were a little more successful and sustained a few more drives then there would have been more plays to dilute this metric.  His very failure contributes to less plays and a higher percentage, he IS PART OF THE METRIC being higher.

Beyond that the you're avoiding the obviousness of it all.  Mahommes and Goff were both under tremendous pressure all season and turned in spectacular results.  In my mind there's no room to say "No one could play with that pressure" when clearly there are guys that are, including Dalton when he had the chance on the same team.

EDIT: In fact, it's you making the strawman by pivoting your argument to wide receiver separation vs. directly addressing performance under pressure.

58 minutes ago, Gapanthersfan said:

People say no QB would have had success with our line last year, and the murmuring is already ramping up.

Excuses. A QB that can make throws that are just plain unfair to a defense all of a sudden makes a line look 10x better. It inspires confidence in the whole team, and a lack there of on the opponent. The inverse holds true as well. How hard are these dudes going to play if they know QB just does not have the tools to needed to win? Why get your brains beat in if you’ve got a full bank account and KNOW your guy is not even close to being an NFL qb?

BY ain’t it, sadly, and everyone knows it. I’m very interested to at least see what things look like with an NFL capable arm tonight.  I’m expecting to lose, but hopefully not be completely demoralized. 

Statistically Mahommes was pressured more (152 to 150) and hit more (65 to 50) than Bryce last year, yet only sacked 27 times to Bryce's 62.  But Bryce copers on here acting like no one could be successful under pressure.

Honorable Mention for Jared Goff as well.

Can he play QB?

22 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

They fuging knew a shitstorm was on the horizon

Actually more like diarrhetic flooding from the poo storm we've been in since 2018.  The only players on the roster that have seen a winning season are TMo and Shaq and they're on their 7th coach in 6 years.

Holding Bryce out like his availability is the lynchpin of our success.  LMAO

I think it's completely plausible that Bryce is being held out because they CAN'T evaluate the team completely with him under center.  Many of us pointed out how much different the team looked under Dalton's one start last year, all while being shouted down by the Bryce defenders who were petrified of Dalton starting again and cementing the argument.  It's going to get real one sided around here real quick, this is the first context clue.

5 minutes ago, Jackie Lee said:

Every Louisville fan i've encountered online couldn't wait to get rid of Plummer. We'll see. At least he's willing to throw deep

Cannales actually addressed specifically that he thought Plummer gave them a great chance to evaluate the team.  I welcome the opportunity to contrast what we see out of Plummer and the team with what we have coming.  It's wild that DC said out loud that there is no QB competition here.  I mean we all knew it, but dang that's an actual coach saying it doesn't matter who plays the best.

This is great news, now we have a chance to see some decent QB play Thursday!  That should allow us to actually evaluate the rest of the team a little better.  

They're just keeping a lid on the poo show for as long as they can.  Keep pumping out good vibes and sell as many tickets as you can before you have to compete with fans selling theirs.  

Everyone about to figure out that Bryce is a lot more like Zach Wilson than Peyton Manning.

Whew, glad we don’t have to worry about TE anymore.

We’re cursed.  This is what happens when you’re in a division with NOLA.

1 hour ago, MasterAwesome said:

I follow your logic but that's an overly simplistic and reductive approach.  It doesn't really make sense to just apply a blanket average velocity to every type of NFL throw.  Certain passes are going to require a bullet pass into a tight window.  Certain passes are going to require touch.  Launching a 50 yard pass downfield to an Adam Thielen in 2.7 seconds of pocket time is going to require a lofty rainbow pass with a lot less velocity.  Even simply swapping Thielen for a receiver like Ja'Marr Chase is going to drastically change the velocity requirement on that throw.  A metric like "average velocity" when accounting for every single type of NFL throw is pretty meaningless.

Well no poo, I don’t bother stating the obvious because it’s obvious.  The point is 2.7 seconds is plenty enough to get off a deep pass.  There’s always someone like you lurking around trying to nitpick around the point though.  Touch grass.

2 hours ago, MasterAwesome said:

That's true but I also hear so many of the usual suspects complaining on those deep passes that the ball "floats in the air" too long.  That's the only way to throw <2.7 second deep shots.  There's no such thing as a <2.7 second deep bullet pass considering the receiver needs time to actually run down the field.

The average pass velocity in the NFL is 54mph.  This translates to roughly 1.5 seconds of air time to travel 40 yards.  When you add 1.5 seconds of air time to 2.7 of pocket time that average pass will reach a 40 yard depth at 4.2 seconds more or less depending on arm strength and trajectory. 

1 hour ago, DJ feed me moore said:

the bears starting QB tonight out played Bryce Young last year in the regular season. 

Everyone outplayed Bryce last year.

This is as glass half full as you can get.  Here’s the half empty retort.

1.  Brady is the GOAT, I’d give him more credit for keeping himself upright than a random Tampa coach.

2. Huh?  Really?  Some random assistant TE coach is your #2 point on offensive line upgrades?  
 

3. 2.7 seconds. Hahahahahahahaha, ok.  How this counts as upgrading the line I don’t even know.  If it works out it’s a philosophy or QB upgrade, not a line upgrade. 
 

4. Chuba is serviceable and Brooks is a complete unknown.  You clowns act like a decent CFB player is a shoe in for an elite NFL player.  Grow up.  Even if Brooks magically were “elite” that’d be a RB upgrade not a line upgrade.  
 

Now, as far as the line.  Who tf knows what we’ll get from Icky, that’s a guessing game.  Hunt and Lewis are certainly upgrades but I argue here and now that they’re not upgrades BY9 can benefit from.  If we run the ball 30 times a game we can win 5 or 6.  It’s all pointless if Bryce is our QB though.

lol dropped a bunch of nobodies to add a bunch of nobodies.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/transactions
 

It’s interesting to note that our transactions look different than pretty much everyone else, even considering every team has 30+ extra players right now.

lol @ Brooks ranked higher than Hubbard.  These clown rankings act like experience means nothing and an injured rookie gonna just run rough shot over a vet like Chuba that has faced an avalanche of adversity.  Good for him if he does but jeez earn something.

Matt Rhule can’t be faulted for bumbling and stumbling his way into millions of dollars for accomplishing essentially nothing.  In this country his next stop is probably President.

His best skill was always lip service and this is just more of that.

Anyone willing to give him any more games should be willing to give any random cheeks QB a season+ to prove something.  The only reason he’s getting another chance is sunk cost.  Any other QB with less invested that played like BY9 last year would be a dead man walking NFL wise.

I have zero faith and every game played with him at starter is a wasted week.

13 hours ago, csx said:

It is. Why else did you think they make millions?

Stop clowning, it’s not hard for competent QBs to complete a pass to any NFL caliber receiver.  It’s the the half ass or less QBs like BY9 that can make it sound difficult to throw a football to DJ9.  Bryce fugging sucks and that’s the bottom line here on my comment.

They make millions for many reasons.  Bryce certainly isn’t making millions because he’s like a superstar QB.  It’s because he was drafted #1 in the NFL and that has pay standards.  DJ9 is a six year vet and that also has pay standards, although you could fairly argue he’s actually accomplished something in the league.

Beyond that, let’s not act like idiots here and pretend that they only make millions because passing a football is hard.  Some of those millions come from expectations and sunk cost fallacy alone.

That article makes it sound real real difficult to throw and catch a football.  It’s just gonna take time.  

17 hours ago, hepcat said:

Hence the massive investment in massive offensive lineman he can’t see over 

And fast receivers that’ll have to throttle down for underthrown ducks.