panthers55

Everything you said for the most part is your opinion or gleaned from draft sites who typically parrot one another because they don't have time to watch everyone so they just repeat what someone else writes so they can all be wrong together. He isn't much faster, doesn't run better routes and only is a marginal blocker. I keep hearing about his yards after the catch but can't find any numbers which compare the two. Do you have any? May be you don't know that Hardy was also the Pirates punt returner and is also very good in the open field. As for the other points like Agholar knowing more about the pro route tree system, that is your opinion nothing more. I find nothing that suggests that Hardy knows less about the pro game or has a lower football IQ. And Agholar is not any more elusive or quick then Hardy. Just because you say it doesn't make it true. Will Agholar go higher than Hardy, almost guaranteed. But that rarely guarantees much. Busts among receivers is high and very high among USC receivers. It has been almost 20 years since they had one that was as good in the pros as in college. Does that matter? While he could be the exception to the rule, the last 16 guys before him weren't. So let's agree to disagree but there is little you said which are facts and not just opinions. So

Hardy will be good in any system because he works tirelessly, put out maximum effort, is a great route runner and a very aggressive blocker. Those things work everywhere. Of course we don't run an air raid offense but the system Cam came from much closer than what we run now. It isn't important if Hardy learned another system as long as he can run the whole route tree and understands football which he does. New England doesn't run an air raid system either for that matter. Do we use the slot receiver that much? When have we ever had a great one?

And in track it is called winning. In football it means little though. Otherwise the NFL would be overrun with track folks. But football personnel know that the sped thing is not even in the top three things which makes a great receiver.

Yeah He did. Obviously though sped isn't enough to make it as a receiver.

Because it isn't noteworthy in football like it is in track. That is why most analysts differentiate between straight line 40 speed and football speed. Acceleration and quickness are more important than top end speed or guys like Ginn would have gotten a ton more interest than he did.

I do remember that it run on an indoor track so that is a valid point but it underscores my argument. I disagree that there is much difference between the two times unless football is played on turf in shorts with no equipment. Grass is slower than turf so does that make Agholor at 4.5 guy on grass and Hardy a 4.6 guy given that natural grass is slower than turf. And who can run down the field in full gear faster looking over their shoulder on a corner route between the two? Shouldn't we be doing that if we really want to know who is faster on the field. Truth is that there are a bunch of variables which renders 40 times nice to know but not very useful unless you have bigger gaps in time. As most knowledgeable folks know, things like 3 cone and shuttle runs tell you a lot more than about agility, athleticism and quickness than a flat 40 time. Unless I am wrong and receivers take off out of blocks in a down position and don't have to focus on catching a ball. You guys confuse track speed with football speed which is very different.

First of all running in track clothes is much different than running in full football gear on grass so really the difference is not that much in game speed. Plus Hardy ran a 4.4 at his pro day so again if it so much then how can a guy improve that much unless it isnt a big deal. Lastly no one is saying that Nelson isnt a a very good route runner, I am simply saying that Hardy is a great runner also so Nelson is not necessarily better. As for running the route tree, Hardy did run it and the air raid offense is every bit as complex or moreso than USC. As you note, the fact that he was often used underneath and on come back routes doesnt mean he doesnt know all the routes simply he wasn't showcased many times. As for preferring Agholor, you aren't alone. He has climbed the draft boards over the past month and likely will be drafted ahead of Hardy. But I am not clear that is because of his ability as much as where he played and the visibility he had, but that is my opinion which is certainly biased.

Again if he ran a 4.56 at the combine ans he runs a 4.4 a month later then how are they so different? Answer they arent, or he coudnt have improved so much in one month. And having a better yards after the catch is often skewed by scheme and position. For example if you are a slot receiver who works underneath and has little time to even get open, your yards after the catch isnt going to that high. Plus the more catches you make there is often regression toward the mean just based on a higher number of chances. Secondly the air raid offense of the pirates is based on spreading the ball and working horizontally not vertically so deep routes are not emphasized which obviously improves your yards after the catch if you break free from the defender and your quarterback doesnt throw the ball 40 yards down the field on every deep ball. Again you can say all great things about a receiver and Nelson clearly is very good. But making head to head comparisons between players who play against different teams and run different schemes is not nearly as cut and dry and you try to make it appear. But I figure you would already know that........

I don't know that everyone agrees that he is even a better route runner. Hardy was observed by some to be the best route runner at the Senior Bowl which included guys expected to be drafted above him. Yeah I know Nelson wasnt at the senior bowl but the point is that Hardy is considered one of the best route runners in the draft. And yeah the difference between 4.42 and 4.56 is less than a full body length.FWIW Hardy ran a 4..4 at his pro day so if they are so different then how can he run that much faster a month after the combine? Obviously you arent expert enough to know that 40 times can easily change and you clearly put too much emphasis on a tenth of a second which players can vary from one performance to another. Again the numbers aren't that clear except in your opinion. If their40 times are similar then the argument that Nelson is a better deep threat or faster apparently isn't supported by fact either. Maybe stick with Agholar is quicker out of breaks although since he didn't run 3 cone or the shuttle at the combine or his pro day they don't have comparisons. As for game film, unless they are lined up against the same player running the same routes, what you see is how Agholar runs against the defenders he faced which were different than the ones Hardy faced. Do you have any film where they both competed against the same guy running similar routes? Otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges.

Of course I have watched Nelson but not to the same level,I have watched Hardy extensively so unlike many here I don't just watch highlight reels or select plays or games and assume that I have enough expertise to make a judgement or comparison about every player. Notice I have not said that Nelson is not as good or denigrated him. I simply said you are underating Hardy and he would be a better value than Ogholor in my opinion given what is being reported about both by those in the media who do claim expert status. I pointed out that your opinion of Nelson is not universally held so it is not a given or something that is not open to debate. I respect your opinion but believe it is just that, your non expert opinion which is no more valid than any other opinion here. I wish more people would stop acting as if they are some kind of expert when they have had little or no formal training by an expert and only think they know what they are talking about. Some of us acknowledge we are fans and offer no expert status.

Obviously different sites have different analyses but much of you say about Agholar is not universally shared. The NFL draft site has him running a 4.42 while Hardy ran a 4.54. I don't want to hear that you can tell the difference which is less than the blink of an eye. Plus they noted his game speed is slower than his timed speed and he is an average blocker without top deep speed to blow by corners. http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/nelson-agholor?id=2552600 You can find sites which question Hardy's straight line speed and out of his break quickness . Yet his 3 cone drill results were top among all receivers. Agholor did not compete in the cone or shuttle due to injury. Even Hardy's shuttle time was decent at 4.21 while the top one among receivers in the combine was 4.06. And he was definitely not just a workout warrior. Honestly if we can get Hardy in the 3rd or 4th he is a much better value than Agholar in the second IMO. And while I claim no expertise in watching Agholar, I have watched Hardy extensively over his career.

I think your evaluation of Hardy while complementary suggests that he had issues with separation and quick route running. I think your film must also have shown that Hardy played with an incredibly porous offensive line and a quarterback who was inconsistent in his accuracy. Hardy rarely had time for many deep rotes and often was used working back to the ball when Carden was on the move. He was often used for a quick hitter or on third and 10 was the underneath guy who could run well after the catch. So his role was to find open areas and be the go to guy where Carden could throw it to an area and Hardy would go up or down to snag the ball and move the chains. You also should have noted how aggressive he is when blocking for a running back or another receiver. I am sure Nelson is a great receiver as well just noting that Hardy would be a good fit for what we do particularly given our line issues and inconsistent offense. He is a clutch performer who can make plays when everyone knows where the ball is going to go.

Strong is an athletic wide receiver who needs to learn better fundamentals. He does have great size and speed. Qualities you can't coach that much. Struggles with concentration. Where have we heard this before. He is the type of receiver we would love to have in the second if we go a different direction in the first than receiver. The problem is whether you are looking for a guy with a high ceiling who needs work or you want a guy with a higher floor but potentially a lower ceiling. If there is a run on wide receivers in the first I could see guys like Strong move up particularly with teams who can draft a guy and let him develop instead of being thrust into a starting role.

We are doing a good job of due diligence and looking at a bunch of guys we like and hope are going to be there at our picks. I think with Davis's not yet signed to a contract that anything is in play. I just wouldn't do it. But then again I am no expert.

DGB is a great physical specimen but the knock is he is lazy and undisciplined. Characteristics which are deadly in the NFL. Everyone has talent. The difference are the guys who are talented and have the intangibles as well. There are plenty of those guys available so that we don't have to take a chance on a guy who has issues.

He is a very interesting prospect but not as a first rounder if guys like Perriman or Strong are there as well. As you work into the second or third he becomes more intriguing. The problem for me is that Cam's style really plays better to large taller receivers with big catch radiuses. One of the problems with Smitty was difficullty getting him the ball particularly deep. I like him as a slot receiver, the only question is could we find someone almost as fast and with the same good hands further down in the draft or is he the BPA in the second or third. And do we draft him or lets say a DE or RB at that position.

It is hard to say what Gettleman seems to value the most. Common thought he loves his hog mollies but given we passed on OT last year and brought in Martin and Oher, the thought may be that we need to shore up other positions such as a RB, or WR or even a DE over a tackle that likely would not start right away. Compare that to a WR for example who might come in and play right away depending on who we pick. Or a guy like Gurley who could compete for stating time day one. I dont agree that Martin or Oher are Honda Civics. They are actually guys who started in the league and were good. Oher had injuries and Martin had the unfortune to be stuck on a Miami team with a crazy and undisciplined locker room. I think folks are going to be upset again when we skip over drafting a tackle in the first round and go elsewhere. Obviously it depends on who is available and who is taken at other positions. But there is no magic in the first round as to who will be a boom or bust compared to the second or third other than most times you hold on to the first rounder longer increasing the chance they stick simply because they were a first rounder. I want us to draft guys in the first 2 rounds that make an immediate impact rather than serve as depth for 2 years and then start.

I can get behind the idea of drafting a tackle or two and agree that as long as everyone understands they will be a project and we need vets with starting experience in the meantime we are in agreement. With that said I would draft a tackle in the third or fourth round given that there are very guys in the third who are not big drop offs from those available at 25. I don't think Oher or Martin will be as bad as Bell and believe that one or both will do a very good job for us. I am not resigned to bad play at this point. FWIW any player available in free agency is someone that another team either didn't want or didn't think they were worth paying what they wanted. I think Martin will thrive in this environment and am optimistic for Oher as well.

And why do you think that a draft pick even in the first round will magically fix our O line at left tackle. For that matter 2 rookies. I would think that by now folks have figured that linemen rarely come in and perform adequately in their rookie season. Look at Matthews in Atlanta who was selected 6th in the draft which is long way from 25. He was supposed to come in and fix their line. Instead he struggled mightily. Frankly you better hope Remmers and Oher and Martin can come in and start right away because they are going to be better than any rookie we are bringing in,

Obviously no one knows the future and injuries can turn things around in a hurry but both Martin and Orr have played left tackle at a high level and have been successful. I think that between the two of them they will get the job done. I have faith in our coaches to get the most out of our players. Look what Matsko did with Remmers and Norwell. Seems to me that he surely can do a good job with guys with starting experience in the NFL. So yeah as fixed as you can be in April.

Barring injuries I think the o line has been fixed. So I think that whoever runs the ball will have more success this year. As for drafting one high, I am with those posters that says it really depends on who is available when we pick. If a running back is truly the BPA and we can't approximate that pick somewhere down the line, then draft him. But dont draft someone for need at this point. With running backs being devalued and with so many still available in free agency, it would be stupid to draft one high unless he was a real game changer. Edit: autocorrect sucks sometimes.

I am excited Martin is here. With our locker room and with Rivera's support there is every reason to believe that Martin can return to his former level. What a no-brainer. Who gets a potential left or right starting NFL tackle off waivers unless there were issues. I don't think that football has to include bullying and intimidation. Particularly from your own guys. I hope he can contribute and fit in. A win- win for everyone. What is there not to like?

Sure you have to use something but the passer rating is really only one comprehensive stat but not always the best one. It uses elements such as touchdowns without accounting for the difference between teams that historically run in the redzone for example versus those who always throw the ball and dont have a power running game. Yet the quarterback that throws it to score will have a higher passer rating. As I noted earlier if one quarterback throws 15 screens, 2 dumpoff passes and 2 long passes versus another one that throws the whole route tree irrespective of system and personnel, which one will have a much higher completion percentage? I can understand using it for a list to get relative ranking but when comparing 2 quarterbacks or comparing Cam to others it seems rather lazy to rely on a stat that admittedly has significant flaws and doesnt account for the new wave of more athletic quarterbacks who can run as well as pass. And honestly that is a big part of his game.

On and on. One question? How fair is it to compare even contemporaries on passing ratings when they operate in different systems. Are we really going to compare completion rates for a QB in a short passing WCO where many throws are 5 yard dumpoffs to backs in the flat or simply slants and crossing patterns with a quarterback running a vertical passing attack emphasizing the deep ball and intermediate to long out routes for example.

I agree that I DG needs to sign Cam long term and pay him what he deserves. The guy the year before Cam was drafted made a ton more than Cam did and has done half as much. We really did get him for cheap which is why taking him was a no brainer. He was a tremendous athlete who wanted to learn and get better who was playing in a simple system. You aren't investing 100 million on.a guy who might be a beast or a bust, you are investing 22 and this year 14 more. A great return on your investment for five years of hard work by a quarterback who has had to carry the team on his back at times. There aren't 32 franchise quarterbacks in the league or everyone would have one. Cam is one and is only scratching his potential which make a continued investment in Newton mandatory. I think that anyone who disagrees and doesn't covet our guy must think that elite quarterbacks are a dime a dozen. As a panther fan who has experienced guys like Peete, Weinke, Carr, and Clausen, I was overjoyed when we drafted Cam who was the most physically gifted quarterback in our franchise history. And I am still optimistic given last year he showed his toughness and grit regardless of our record or his individual stats. He was not only a leader but he never quit and showed up healthy or hurt. You can coach heart and he showed that in spades.