Woodie

That's the thing, there are probably 47 prospects that could be gone at 25. That's what's so maddening about this draft. From around pick 13 or so, you have about 30-40 guys that have qualities that scream 1st round talent, but they also have negatives that also scream potential bust. I think it's why you see so many fans jump from prospect to prospect, depending on who is currently being talked up. IMO, this will be the FIT draft. While most successful GM's tend to look for BPA, I think this year they're going to be putting more attention than usual on who is the right fit for their team. Without much separation between the players ranked from 15-45, teams are going to put more emphasis on what a player can do in their system than where they are ranked on their board. So more than most drafts, I think we could see more than the usual number of players taking big drops. Particularly, I think we'll see more than a couple of guys everyone thought were locks for round one drop well into the 2nd, and guys most think of 2nd round talents being taken in the 1st. In other words, this may be the most intriguing draft quite in a while.

I agree to an extent. Cam actually does a very good job of minimizing many of the hits he takes. He does take the occasional big hit, but more often than not it's either glancing, or Cam drops before the big hit comes. But you are right that regardless he will eventually have to run less. However, I think we have seen him improve every year, and at the start of this year, he showed a much higher level of maturity as a passer until things went downhill for the entire team. And adding weapons is unquestionably vital to Cam ever becoming what he can be. Right now (and even previously when Smitty was still here) we had limited weapons and inefficient protection, so Cam has never truly been able to be let loose. Bring in playmakers and speed on the outside along with some real protection, and I have a feeling that Cam will become one of the most feared QB's in the league. So a lot depends on what the team puts around Cam. Fortunately, I believe in Gettleman's ability to eventually find the right pieces. So I think when all is said and done, Cam and Luck will be the Manning/Brady of their generation. You wouldn't go wrong with either of them.

I like Rivera, just think he needs someone to help him with clock management. And I'm far from sold on Shula, particularly as a playcaller and his ability to adjust. But to be fair, he really hasn't had a complete set of weapons since he took over, so I'm hoping with the changes we should see this year that he becomes more consistent. At worst though, I think he is a conservative playcaller that shouldn't hurt us too much as long as we have players capable of winning their matchups. And I think we will have that for the most part...at least I hope. As for Fozzy, no, I don't see him as a good long-term #2. I think he's a solid #3 back, but if it's just him and JStew, then I think we would be in trouble if Stewart goes down for any length of time (which is not all that unlikely).

You have to look at the totality of their games. Luck is more passing oriented but is also a good runner, and Cam is a better runner who is also a good passer. So if you are being fair, you have to include both aspects when comparing them. And in doing so, they are pretty much on an equal level. As for TD's, true, Luck has thrown more touchdowns than Cam, but Cam still has more total TD's than Luck. Luck has a total of 98, while Cam has 115. But even using TD's is really not fair since so much of that depends on the situation and team around them. And this year, Cam really didn't have any consistent touchdown makers, while Hilton alone gave Luck a huge advantage in that area.

I do think we are very close. Our defense already can play with anyone, and we already have some significant pieces on offense. We are sorely lacking a speed receiver to keep defenses honest and our OL was obviously a wreck. But with the way Rivera and Gettleman have talked, I have no doubt we will get that deep threat receiver this offseason. And by the end of the year, we seemed to have figured out four fifths of our OL. And I fully expect that fifth position will be filled by someone that will at least be competent (the most difficult improvement we need to find). Not to mention that Cam was hurt all of last year, but should be healthy this season. And we still have a top shelf receiving TE and a quality starting WR that should improve with an offseason to work on his game. I also expect that we will bring in a RB to replace DeAngelo. I don't know if it will be from FA or the draft, but I have little doubt it will be someone who will be more productive than DeAngelo was last year. Bottom line is that the holes keeping us from perennial playoff contention are at WR (playmaking speed guy), LT, and backup RB that can start in a pinch if JStew goes down again. And I fully expect those to be our focus this offseason, particularly receiver and tackle. So, I see no reason not to see the playoffs as a possibility. And for the record, I don't push much stock in our up and down history. This is a different team that finally has the look of one that believes in itself. Last year they proved to themselves that they can overcome hardships to make the playoffs (yes, they had some luck with the bad division, but every winning team is lucky to some extent), and this season, I think they expect to be there. In the past, I always got the feeling that they were always hoping more than believing they belonged. This year, I get the distinct impression that they not only believe, but know they belong in the playoffs. Bad year? Unless it because of something freaky, we'd likely see major changes and any hope for the near future would be flushed down the toilet.

I think the problem is what Indy is reportedly going to give Luck. To be honest, none of these guys has earned the right to be the highest paid player yet, but with Luck, they are pushing them there. I think Cam views himself on the same level as Luck (as well he should, IMO), and will expect to be payed in the Luck vicinity. That's why he's waiting on him to set the bar. He knows that based on other recent QB payouts, he'd probably get closer to 19 million a year or so, but if Luck gets 25, then he could probably get at least 21-22. I could also see a scenario where Wilson takes a lower total figure in exchange for a higher guaranteed amount, and Cam following suit to something like that. But for that to happen I think the difference in guaranteed money would need to be significant. Something in the 20 million range. For instance, he could sign a 6 year 130 million deal with 50 million guaranteed, or a 6 year deal 102 million with 70 million guaranteed. I don't know what Cam will ultimately do, but I do think he will eventually sign a long-term deal here. The idea that Gettleman won't overpay is true, but Gettleman also knows and understands the landscape of the NFL. To keep a franchise QB, we're going to have to pay the going rate. And with the deal Luck is expected to get, that going rate will be much higher than it is today. And the fact that both Gettleman and Rivera keep spouting that Cam is our franchise QB tells me that he is prepared to pay him what the market dictates.

I don't know if it's that tall of an order. We're not talking the elite, but role players, and there is only one Patriots, so there are plenty of solid role players available every year. And to be honest, I don't think we're that far off. I think we have a good team already, and with the expected additions of an OT and speed on the outside, I think our offense will become much more dangerous. And that, along with our already stout defense, makes me believe that there is no reason we can't be a playoff team for the next few years. And really, if we have one more good year, we will become one of the teams players look to hitch a ride with. We already have a dynamic QB that brings us a lot of attention, and our defense is strong enough to make us a real threat in any game we play. So we're already a team that is viewed as close, we just need to increase our offensive potency and show that we are here (as a playoff contender) to stay.

I don't disagree, I just think its a pick your poison type of situation. And the thing about the Patriots is that they make enough good personnel decisions on role players to keep the train moving along. And NE is awfully lucky to have Brady. It's very rare to see a guy that could hold a team hostage instead work with them to build something special around him. That's where I'm really happy with Gettleman. I think he has a very good eye for talent, and not just the big names, but mid-level guys, so I think he will put us in a position to maintain quality play for a few years to come.

But that actually goes against Zod's point. If you take Luck off that team and replace him with any old journeyman QB, then you have a 2-14 team. So, Luck is vital to Indy's success. However, I believe you'd have the same situation here. IMO, the importance of Luck to Indy and Cam to the Panthers is pretty much identical. Take either off their respective teams, and that team would be in serious trouble. The only real difference at this point is overall team success, and Indy has had more than we have, so Luck benefits from that. But if Cam waits a year, there's a good chance that balances out as well. If we have a good year, go to the playoffs, and get a playoff win (which I think all stand a very good chance of happening), then Cam will get the same team benefit as Luck. I think Cam's people know this, and I think that's a big reason why they won't end up signing this year. They probably also want to make sure the team does make a legitimate attempt to put the pieces in around Cam before committing long-term.

The thing is, is that this is an either/or situation, there is no middle ground. Either you pay to keep both, tying up a large part of our salary cap, or you let them go and try to fill their roles with cheaper options from either FA or the draft. But there is no way you can sign them both to modest contracts that don't put a major ding in our salary cap. It's the same dilemma that every team that drafts well faces. Who is worth the big contract and who do you let walk. And I don't think it's about signing them then having to go bargain shopping. A good and smart GM will draft well, keeping the roster stocked with talented but relatively cheap players, and structure the big contracts in such a way that the cap hits don't handcuff you (this is where Hurney really dropped the ball). They also can identify solid role players in FA that fit what you do, but don't cost a ton. So you build the team around a handful of core players, then build around them with modestly priced role players and young guys on rookie contracts. Everyone likes to look at teams like Atlanta when talking about how a big contract can handcuff your team, but Ryan's contract isn't their problem. They've had the money to bring in some solid players, but they brought in the wrong guys, and they haven't drafted the best. If they had made better personnel decisions, they easily could have won the division last year.

Wilson greatly benefits from the team that surrounds him. He doesn't usually have to force things or carry the offense like Cam and Luck. So, typically, he's going to make fewer mistakes. But I think as a player, he's a notch below them both on ability (still a good player, just not as good as Cam or Luck). However, he will get a contract that reflects back to back SB appearances with one win. Cam and Luck, on the other hand, are fairly equal in terms of overall ability and value IMO. At this point, Luck is a better passer and reads defenses better, but Cam is better at using his legs and turning nothing into something. But that isn't taking anything away from either of them. Cam is still a good passer who has shown consistent improvement every year, and Luck is also pretty mobile and can make plays with his legs. They basically balance each other out. The difference will come down to team wins and team consistency. So, when it comes to contracts, Luck will benefit more than Cam from what surrounds him. But if Cam waits a year to sign, and we get him the weapons we all expect, then there is a good chance that next year Cam will really show out and get about what Luck will this year. If all three sign this year, I expect Wilson to get a creative contract that will not be as much overall as either Luck or Cam, but will likely have higher guaranteed money. I think Luck will get about the 25 million a year that has been reported, and Cam would end up somewhere around 21-22 million a year.

I don't think the Peterson case will have much, if any, bearing on Hardy's situation. They are two completely different issues with very little in common except the fact both players were on the commissioners list and are facing possible suspension. But the cases are really apples to oranges. And the NFL already has reason to suspend him. Hardy's associates and their activities, along with the context of the situation gives them enough reason to suspend if they really want to. And that doesn't even take into account the fact that he was not cleared of anything, he only had the charges dropped (two completely different things). I think many are focusing too much on the legal standards for this, but the NFL does not have to follow the legal standards. They do not have to show proof of guilt in order to suspend him. Nor do they have to have any sort of conviction. All they need is something that tarnishes the image of the league in their eyes, and they already have that. Also, a judge won't rule that his time on the commissioners list was a suspension. And it's not just that he was paid, but that he chose to go on the commissioners list. Nobody forced him to do it. Sure, he was stuck between a rock and a hard place, but he still had a choice...with a suspension, there is no choice. Regardless, the only thing he lost was the ability to play, he didn't lose any of his livelihood. The courts aren't interested in whether or not he wanted to play, their concern is with whether or not his ability to make a living was hampered, and it wasn't. And anything afterward is speculative. Also, the NFL always said it would wait until his court case was resolved before making any kind of decision. And now that it is, they are gathering as much information as possible before making a decision on a suspension. There is no reason for them to rush into it before they get all the facts. And for the record, I don't think it is decided that he will be suspended. I think the NFL is truly trying to see what happened before deciding. The one thing I guarantee is that it will be a political decision. If they find that he really didn't do anything overly wrong, I don't think they will suspend him. But if they don't, they are going to want to have enough info to justify to the media why he wasn't suspended. But if there's any question, I think they will suspend him (or sacrifice him might be a better way to put it). But the length would depend on how guilty they think he is. If they think it was overblown, but there is some smoke there, he might get a game or two, just so they won't look weak. However, if they think he is truly guilty, then I could see a more lengthy suspension. I do agree that there are a lot of factors involved, and that this is pretty unprecedented. But the way the NFL has botched this whole issue could work against Hardy. I could easily see them scapegoating him to show the world that they really are tough on DV. For the record, although I said the NFL already has reason to suspend him, I do not think they will be the reasons he is suspended. I believe those cards would only be played if they feel they have to suspend him to save face, but may not have enough on the merits of the case itself. In that case, I could see them using them as leverage to help justify a suspension.

I think Luke would have his ear if he wanted it, I'm just not certain he is the type to go to the owner about something. He strikes me more a guy that lets his agents or more outspoken teammates handle off-field things like this. Although I do think he would lend his support and stand up for something if necessary.

There is a lot of hearing what you want to hear going on in this thread. I don't think many arguing really understand what Jeremy is saying. He's not saying what is right or wrong, or what should happen, or even what his personal opinion is. He's simply saying that based on the way the winds are blowing in the NFL what you can expect. Most of you are arguing your beliefs of what is right and what should happen. The problem is that despite many on here wanting to believe that the NFL won't suspend Hardy, or that if they do are fairly certain it won't be for six games are using only their own rationale and personal judgment to make that claim. Unfortunately, the NFL does not have the same burden of proof as the courts. And the players union made a major blunder by giving Goodell the authority to hand out punishments as he sees fit. That's why it's rare for the courts to side with a player in a court battle. Here is what we know: 1) Hardy was accused of a reprehensible crime. Yes it was a misdemeanor, but that doesn't minimize its impact. Just the accusation alone gave the league and team a black eye...at least in their eyes. 2) Even though his conviction was set aside due to the laws in NC when appealing, GH was convicted at one point...and setting aside the conviction is a legal standard, not a NFL standard. In their eyes, he was convicted, and then the case was dropped. Not because the DA came to the conclusion it was an unwarranted accusation, but because their star witness disappeared...and they have strongly stated it's because they believe she made a deal with Hardy. Hardy was never exonerated in this case, it was just dropped. If he was innocent, it was never proven in a court of law, so in the leagues eyes, he is stuck with the stigma of the uncertainty of his guilt. Which is to say they still feel they have a black eye. 3) Regardless of his guilt or innocence, it is unquestioned that he put himself in a bad situation that has ultimately made the league look bad. He knowingly associated with people who were doing drugs and the time of the incident is also a negative to the NFL. 4) And despite what some want to think, in the eyes of the law, the commissioners list is not a suspension. He was paid, and made the choice to go on the list rather than let things play out. I think many have missed the point that he was not just put on the list, but agreed to it rather than take a chance on being suspended if things didn't go his way. Some may see it as being strong armed, but the law sees it as his decision, not something forced on him...although the league will be the ones to decide if and when he can come off the list. 5) What this boils down to for the NFL is perception, not guilt or innocence. To them, he made the league look bad, and nothing has happened to lessen that feeling. Ideally, Holder would have shown up at court, and he would have been found not guilty. That would have given the league an out. But as it stands, they are still trying to manage the image, and do not want to come across as soft on DV. The problem with all these arguments people are making is that you cannot apply your own logic and sense of fairness to this situation. The NFL has so mismanaged the entire DV situation that they would rather be seen as coming down too hard rather than that they don't take it seriously enough. And truth is that because of the crappy CBA the players agreed to, the NFL really does have the authority to suspend players for anything they deem harmful to the image of the league. A conviction is not necessary. In order to overturn a suspension, the player would have to prove some sort of impropriety by the league, which is very difficult. They might find a loophole, but the NFL does a good job of closing those up pretty quickly. And the courts are not going to overturn an NFL decision based on what is fair, but on specific facts...mostly ones that would show that the NFL made a decision that fell out of the realm of the CBA.

Yep! And been stuck with those ridiculous salaries. Sometime fate steps in and saves you from some bad things!

I don't think we're anywhere near as high on him as some fans think. At best, he may be a decent #3 or 4 receiver. He has speed, but he's not really explosive, nor does he make people miss...he also is not all that strong, even by receiver standards. And I have yet to see him create much separation. Really, his biggest asset is his straight line speed. The only reason he was used so much this year is because he was the only guy we had that had any kind of speed. But I fully expect that we bring in a receiver this year that has true speed plus explosion. And that will essentially relegate Philly to Bersin's role. Don't get me wrong, I like Philly, but as depth, not a core guy. IMO, the only reason he seemed so eye catching is because all we had to compare him to was sluggish guys like Cotchery and Avant, who were never speed demons, even at their best. This year both Rivera and Gettleman both have emphasized that we will be looking for speed. And I think receiver is one spot that is clearly on their hit list...and probably within the first couple of rounds of the draft...and that will not be good for Philly.

He looks like an offensive lineman on a bike...no way to gauge whether or not he's overweight from that picture (relatively speaking). And no, he went on IR because of knee issues. He had surgery on his PCL and MCL. He might start out on the PUP, but, barring something new popping up, he should be fine in the long run...health-wise that is, still too early to have any clue about performance.

I think the problem with things like this is that we don't how or why this information got out...or how serious it is. It can just as easily be that Gettleman doesn't think he will need to look elsewhere and is only starting the process as a fallback option...or maybe he has already made up his mind. But as you said, we can't really know without knowing what the owner and FO are thinking, we can only speculate. Regardless, like CRA said, this isn't a lame duck situation like it was with Fox. There's at least the perception that Rivera can keep his job if we get to the playoffs. So there's still a reason for the players to stay focused and working hard, unlike with Fox when they knew he was gone no matter what.

I agree with this statement. While Rivera's not a lame duck, he is on very thin ice.

I think if players can't handle this kind of pressure, then they'll never be able to be anything more than average. And if we start winning, nobody will care at all about some random comparison Rivera made.

But Rivera's not lame duck. He has a legitimate chance to stay if he can step up to the plate and turn this team into a winner. If not, then he hasn't earned the right to stay. But to say he is lame duck would imply that he is gone no matter what, and I don't think that is the case at all. What the Panthers are doing is pretty standard for teams with coaches on their last chance.

I think that only applies to fans and fringe media. Most understand the context and take it for what it is. Just like real insiders scoff at the comparisons draft pundits make every year. I believe the most important thing you can take from those comparisons is how Rivera sees those players being used.

I think you, like many, misinterpreted those comparisons. He was just talking about the style of play, not talent level or that they will even be as good as those players.

IMO, it's not a motivation issue, Rivera just gets too conservative at times. I think it took him so long to get a HC job that he is afraid he will blow it by being too risky, so gets overly conservative. But I do believe that when the fire is squarely on his ass he realizes that what he has been doing is not working so needs change a bit. Just listening to him when he was hired I think it is clear that he likes a more aggressive approach, but on the field has been coaching scared. Hopefully, he's starting to trust the idea that his best chance of keeping his job is to become more aggressive...if not, his time will be up at seasons end.

I don't think anyone is 100% committed to Rivera at this point. I do think Gettleman truly wants Rivera to step up and be the man to lead this team long-term, but they have to prepare just in case it doesn't happen. That Giants win was a good start, but if he can't string a few of those together, then the team needs to consider it's options. And the sooner they can start the background work, the quicker they can make a hire if/when Rivera is let go. But I also wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't intentionally leaked as a shot across Rivera's bow...basically saying you are now in a prove it year, either step up or step aside. Gettleman has been here long enough and seen enough to have a pretty solid evaluation of Rivera as a coach (even the things behind the scenes that we fans don't see), so now he's out of second chances and it's win or your out.